Like the David Whitburns and Casey Plunkets of this world. They have a lot in common with…

Nonsense, at least not at the time he made his comment. His prior statements had been about capping salaries and working for the challenge rather than money…

No doubt it's less challenging that way for Actoid fanbois, but the rest of us are somewhat more grownup about life.

@DeepRred…

*A slightly later Matariki/Solstice event

Wears a bit thin when they not only take it for granted but drink your last beer and call you an old fool.

It would be more honest to set the story somewhere like a community center with a sliding scale entry fee and a 9:30pm…

Snopes.com calls bullshit. So do most of the respondents in that 'cheap shot' post.

Why not? I'll happily buy drinks for my mates when they can't pay their way, because we're all in this together. It's a social(ist) thing.

Where they went wrong was that they shouldn’t just have beaten him, but beaten him until he pulled all the cash out of his bank accounts and signed over his house and car. Then left him naked in a ditch.

Because all those…

Yeah. Even odds at this stage?

You wanna see the people already paying by far the lion’s share of the tax all fuck off overseas?

Yes.

cheap shot, but still want to?

A competent opposition might do that.

I agree, absolutely. And the whole beer-bet-leak-issue thing was only a…

Of course it will be rational. It is not irrational to stay the course with a new government three years into its mandate, when it has little to be judged on.…

Sadly I'm inclined to agree with Hilary that it won't be…

On those lines, it's interesting comparing the two quoted spokespeople from that Herald story.

But Mr Goff said the public should not rely on the results of one poll.

"The poll was taken before the announcement…

Yeah, who would have imagined that scheduling a major policy release on a day Hone already had media oxygen could be a problem?

36 years later, though, we get to see the outcome of Muldoon's path – the colossal pension bill, on which elderly people still subsist. We also get…

When one is writing, definitely so. Polls bounce around for all sorts of reasons. But the steady pressure of a good idea building support is lasting. No one is going to remember the ins and outs of how the information about…

Well, with the usual caveats in place the latest One News poll would strongly suggest that a frightfully clever media strategy…

Time to get... useder, I fear. But hey, we're here to change minds after all. It's just about the only worthwhile thing there is.

OK, so my very hasty maths was very…

Jesus, it's good to see everyone takes this bet of a beer so seriously. I'll pay, I'll pay! God knows I earn enough... and also if it's a beer with Russell, it's tax deductible.

BUT. Far be it from me…

To me it seems like a young man's game, so I wouldn't be too sure. The constant movement of technology ages IT people's skills pretty damned fast.

Much as I'd like to call bollocks to the whole idea and be done…

Yes, wouldn't that be dreadful. Happy old folk who don't have to eat cat food.

I think it's more likely that people end up with far less money than…

Yes, that's nowhere near as crazy as it sounds. Having sudden access to a large fund when you've never had more than 10k in your bank account could easily…

The important thing is to save people from the horrible shock of having their lifestyle actually improved in their old age.

Sorry, Damian, you can't change the terms after…

This is an interesting one – I'm not all that familiar with the Australian system, however how does it…

You need to shop around with your childcare. I pay about a third of that for two full days a week.

And once…

Well they must by lying about it and falsely claiming it as repairs and maintenance. Because profits being turned into capital get…

I wouldn't let the positively epic sense of entitlement of many people within Labour to interfere with reality, however.

So long as you can afford to, yes.

OK then, fair enough. I'm sure both of our points here can look like complaining, and that's probably worth addressing. Most certainly I have heard many a person in my situation complaining about progressive taxation. I don't have a…

– just as the definition of 'rich' might differ, so might the definition of 'struggle'. If my bank account got down to $100, or my credit card was within…

Well, given that some Labour MPs have been complaining their announcement was deliberately overshadowed by Hone's oath stunt (they're blaming National,…

Ben, you had me at It.

Yep, you're one the money – except for the complaining bit, I…

And the latter would seem to me as widely regarded as better for the economy. I'm actually undecided about whether this is true, whether we have an unrealistic fixation on skilling up via tertiary education as the savior…

Yes, I got that. But even if it's yucky, it's still an issue with some complexity.

As the son of a tradesperson, I'm going to have to say bollocks to the idea that it's…

One of the things about working in manual trades is that by the time you get…

FFS Ben, it's an expression of frustration at this yucky entitled argument, not a *literal* take. Fifty dollar notes don't even come in two-ply, for one thing.

(Side note: I don't think tradespeople necessarily do 'easy work', either. I would find…

That's a harsh take on what Rik's been saying. It seems to me more like he's complaining about being equated with considerable wealth…

we aren’t sympathetic enough that you can’t wipe your arse with fifty dollar notes every time you take a shit.

youch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1SG5ekJi7Q

I don't understand what your point is, dude. You seem to be mildly complaining because we aren't sympathetic enough that you can't wipe your arse with fifty dollar notes every time you take a shit.

2/3 of $140k is $92,400. You've just about agreed with my argument there – which is (and not many people seem to read this part), that…

Good thing I'm not whining about increased taxes in the higher bracket then!

Enough.

welcome here

By my reading, Rik's 25% puts him in the OK category compared with many low income earners who are paying 50% and more (and usually for rent so they get no capital gain either).

Yep – have been to a few. Best one was at Grey Lynn Bowling Club with Dimmer (& others) playing. The museum one was pretty good also. And the one at the Civic. Russell throws a great party!

I guess Danielle, that everyone is in a different situation and different stages of life. You may or may not have a mortgage. You may or may not have some kids.…

(This seems to be 'the thread in which I make dumb movie jokes', for some reason.)

(Our household income is similar to your example, Rik, and I'm afraid I think we live like fucking kings. Your 'friend' has a surplus…

Do it! They're fun.

is a rather large 6 cylinder SUV which I use to drop the boat into the water at the beach in front of our house

As you do. And no I don’t think you’re a rich prick Rik, it sounds like you’re doing okay for yourself, I’d fully appreciate the…

Want me to deliver? Fine, here goes: we have three kids under ten years old, a fluctuating income – but generally lower than 100k – and we've always managed. Could it be that…

I believe they were more common in my earlier work..

I prefer relativities – richest, not 'rich'. Top 2%, 5%, 10% and 20% seem reasonably uncontentious example thresholds for most things. Though with a government fond of lying about the 'average' and…

Yes!

Personally, I think being rich is more about having…

Good to see you can put that edukashun to use when you want to

Thanks Stephen – I appreciate your thoughts. Actually I may have obfuscated a little too much – I run a fairly complicated spreadsheet that I update on a daily basis which tells me my net position down to…

Personally, I think being rich is more about having enough…

I do have an amazing house and like I…

I honestly think that if you’re self-employed, that is a bad position to be in. Apart from saving the fees, you can’t evaluate whether your accountant is any good. You’re in business now, and that means you really need to know this…

Where? And aren't you conflating individual with household income in any case?

My partner and I are both self-employed and guess what – we do our own accounting. We had to learn, so we learned.…

Not in my personal experience at all, actually- mind you, this was in the late 1980s/1990s

Off the top of my head I’d cut the health insurance, seeing as the state provides that. OK – you just shaved $1,800 off my expenses.

I’d also ask myself if I really need an accountant. Yes I do…

Just to clear a few things up, are the cars merely for getting from A to B (where a 4-cylinder motor would suffice), or do…

I don’t think owning a slightly-too-small property in a low income suburb is “inflated”. It was well within the means of even poor people of my parents generation.

Two things have happened. First, there’s more than 30% more people here than when I was born (1970). A house of the…

Yes, that would be me. Off the top of my head I'd cut the health insurance, seeing as…

It was within my mother's means only because in the 70s the govt offered 3% mortgages...

The former, in my case, I think. For the latter, I don't think owning a slightly-too-small property in a low income suburb is "inflated". It was well within…

Once again: not on the planet I live on. Seriously, the only way a household on a 100k income struggles is if they don’t budget effectively. And if they don’t even bother to…

You also don't see any of that in the law. And this is coming from somebody who would like our CGT to be a lot more aggressive than what Labour is proposing.

1. It only counts income tax. Not GST, excise or other taxes. Such a table would look different if it were about all tax paid. It seems odd to omit those other taxes, since the benefits alluded to are not paid solely out of…

I'm one of those awful right-wingers who doesn't automatically regard a capital gains tax as the work of the Evil One. But, damn, I really hope the actual policy isn't going to live down to my expectations that it's going to be so full…

Labour hopes to swing public opinion behind its capital gains tax plan by including an exemption for hundreds of thousands of tradespeople and small owner-operated businesses.

And it is understood there will be a five-year moratorium on the…

It's called "Born Rich", and was directed and filmed by Jamie Johnson, one of the heirs to the Johnson & Johnson fortune. The people interviewed were a mix of old and new money – I remember a European…

Metropolitangst
The Last Days of Compact Discs, Oh!

Damn, I wish he'd made more than three films. :)

too kind (and yes, you can read that both ways)

Barcelona or the Bag

I'm now imagining the reality show version of a Whit Stillman film.

What's it called? Are these kids old money types, new money or both?

And, then, of course, there are all the people who technically…

Like I've said, one line of code..

Depending on the severity, so would I. If someone said to me that the cost of more money will be lifelong severe depression, I would think twice. In fact, that's precisely the choice I'm facing right now. It's been very…

I watched a very interesting…

I for one would welcome that type of problem :)

Interestingly, it's been my wife's greatest worry despite making a lot more money the irregular way.

The side of my generalization I'm least sure of is the part about the money worries of the very rich. The theory is pretty simple…

The basic training of the New Zealand middle class is to be happy as long as you can pay the bills and not have to worry about getting the occasional nice thing, rather…

Actually, I should be more careful. There surely are middle class people who budget hard, this is most likely the springboard from whence mobility to enormous wealth comes. And there are some who are so disinterested in money…

And fucking how.

Yes, but I don't think it's a key sign of richness. This is the odd similarity about the poor and rich. The middle class is actually quite different in this dimension, I think.

Isn't that a key sign of well-offness? Not having to think about it. The difference in my mental outlook from 'oh my god, if we spend that $20 the mortgage payment will bounce' to 'huh, does the mortgage payment come out this…

No, I have occasionally struggled, usually trying to work out how the hell to pay my next tax bill, since the payment on contracts can be very delayed. But on the whole, I seldom spend time worrying…

When I was married with two children and studying. Our family had a total income of about 25k before tax. And we…

I expect I need some of that advice. I can't talk to anyone else's reasons for being in this position, but I've been in…

That's from Keith's post about the subject last year. Graphs currently broken but his answer to the lines you quoted still stands:

No,…

Randians have been doing that for some time. Some better than others.

oh really

Which is what really gets my goat about the resurgence of entitled libertarian whinging of late. Had their chance from 1984 until 1999 (and beyond, some might argue) and it's all too clear who benefitted and where…

I'm saying the level of personal tax paid is more proportionate to income and asset ownership levels than is often presented. The wealthiest New Zealanders are…

Just wanted to clear a minor detail up – it was not me who suggested that high earners would leave if top tax rates went up. What…

So I'm a bit confused now...you seem to be saying that it…

It's a little difficult to tell from your spreadsheet and post, but I think you've overstated that. People earning a million dollars a year also earn (and pay tax) in the blue, green, and…

Just take health. Surely a good, well-funded education system and the stability it will bring to its participants will have obvious effects on the blow outs of domestic budget we see each year on a variety of health…

typically an auctioning process takes place there

Yank and rank its called. It was a big part of Enrons personnell policy and is used
to determine how far you will go with an organisation, because if you get yanked there's no salary to discuss.

If you regard value as what can be calculated in monetary terms, yes.

what they do sells itself for big bucks

verily, the sound of one hand clapping

If you think money doesn't have value, why worry about it?

Essentially the problem is that the direct value of people like investment bankers is easily calculated, indeed they structure their lives to make it so. They sell their service to some organization…

Teachers do important work too, but they aren't holding anywhere near as much responsibility or liability

Just huge influences over your childs development, nothing special.

Only if you conflate value with money.

Sure you…

I can't help thinking if we met we probably would have comment agreements on most things that bring value to our lives.

It's just these economics are doing my head in.:)

Super Special Needs Scotsman Paul Reynolds gets to live fiscal life like a king.Taxing him more aggressively will not change his lifestyle one bit unless he is basically financially illiterate.The tax take of…

These people can't be living in the same country in…

They could work for free and still owe us money.

I think the real reason I come to PAS is to enter into debate on such matters arising. I am hugely disappointed when the debate is reduced to sniping between those with opposing views (and yes, I get sucked into this as well).

I am…

Let’s take a look at a comment I posted earlier:

Let’s think about that. Let’s say the teacher is earning $80k – so for the last $10k of their income they are paying the same tax rate that the CEO of Telecom is paying on the (roughly) $1.7mil…

I like to read this website because

1) Russell is a rare talent in this country. I…

For us 98% non-libertarians, yes.

And this is a bad thing that needs to be changed?

We already have way too many of those as a proportion of our total economy. What problem are you solving?

And the private sector must be compelled to do their share, given the failure of waiting for voluntary efforts to improve their relative contribution compared with most other developed nations. Time for corporate bludging off the state to stop.

Similar political challenge to CGT – the benefits happen a long time after the cost, to different governments.

Selling broadly the long-term vision is crucial to keep support going (rather than have the next lot dismantle it like the current vandals are doing with KiwiSaver). Thank goodness…

I'm not convinced they would. Investment bankers will still be paid way more than teachers unless we magically de-couple NZ from the global economy.

I believe the CGT and child-centred social policy are both significant initiatives but one does not seem to imply the other…

You know, you can tax exports extra. Works the same as an import tax, promoting local businesses who serve local needs, only without driving up local prices or encouraging inefficiencies, all while ensuring any externalised costs of our export industries are recoverable.…

– Broken Hill (mining national parks)
– Hollywood (the Hobbit Wars and the Copyright Wars, and of course the –…

quite

As the Bearer of a Uterus, may I just…

Anyway, right now, Wikipedia tells me that mining is 5.6% of Australian GDP, and about 35% of exports. cite. It's not…

You know, they had mineral wealth and we hadn't twenty years ago as well, and the gap between the two countries has ballooned…

Yes, I remember I had brought a crate of tomatoes. You know, for comfort.

They instead seem to think we are going to catch up with Australia by doing the opposite…

Really? You do realise that only 1 in 50 of New Zealanders are reliable Act-voting libertarians. Sure you're not hanging out with an unrepresentative sample?

Yes please. I'd welcome lower corporate taxes – for exporters – in exchange for a CGT and more progressive personal rates with a decent universal minimum income.

Also strong investment for our future in things like affordable broadband, high-value sustainable businesses and…

Yes, they can, if they want to. There are plenty of countries with less tax, and a number of my friends have gone to live and work in them. You can’t just point to a country that has…

We were all lined up at the leaving gates, we were, weeping and wailing and begging them to stay.

Speaking of Australia, the logic is quite simple really – the prevailing orthodoxy thinks Kath & Kim is a…

Taxable income Tax on this income
0 – $6,000 Nil
$6,001 – $37,000 15c for each $1 over $6,000
$37,001 – $80,000 $4,650 plus 30c for each $1 over $37,000
$80,001 –…

When we have high quality public…

Which N.Z business people in particular do you fear would leave and how would they do it ?

I guess I'm with the higher taxers. I can't understand your proposition. The facts don't reflect your predictions. I can't begin to understand the defence of tax laws made by strange…

Yeah, that was over-simplistic of me, I simply meant that it certainly ain't being dictated by Labour, whose fricken policy it is. And knowing the media fairly well, they'll be reluctant to re-run the…

for once I think the Herald editorial and cartoonist nails my perspective!

As Ernesto Rossi once said, if a fascist says that it's raining and it is actually raining, then the fascist is right.

But hey, look, knock yourself out, agreeing with Roger…

Yup, and if you think our future prosperity lies in shipping milk powder overseas, then there's another thing we'll have to…

Commentators are, and also most people seem to have a good idea about what it is, and are forming…