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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | Cracker: All Aboard!</title>
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		<description><![CDATA[A talking shop where we put the questions and our community illuminates the issues.]]></description>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49799#post49799</link>
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						In some European countries they do subsidise home generation. Typically, they do this as part of a subsidy on all reusable generation &ndash; which is partly a rort to make nuclear power appear an even slightly economic proposition. Because (some of) those European leaders really, really want to glow in…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 18:59:32 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49786#post49786</link>
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						<p>Hi Andrew,</p><p>I know that running the meter backwards is not technically correct. I think perhaps 10 years or more ago it was occurring to a small extent and was largely ignored. I think it may depend on the extent to which you are still a large net user as…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 16:38:13 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49781#post49781</link>
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						<p>Damien<br />It is becoming commonplace overseas, and there are some small scale exporting installations in NZ too. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it will probably cost more then power generated at a power station and delivered to your door... (20c/kWh ish) which is where the argument…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 16:10:42 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49779#post49779</link>
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						<p>And it seems like <a href="http://www.niwascience.co.nz/__data/assets/file/0006/44655/sunshine.xls" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Scott Base could probably get reasonable use out of solar hot water in summer</a>, which is presumably when their hot water demand is highest. And it would have to beat transporting in fuel I'd assume.</p><p>Franz Josef seems to be the main mainland contender for being…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 16:07:55 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49775#post49775</link>
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						There's a nice summary <a href="http://www.level.org.nz/energy/renewable-electricity-generation/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a>of home generation and feeding power back to the grid
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 15:53:43 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49771#post49771</link>
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						<blockquote><p>I think the answer is to close Huntly, not Tiwai</p></blockquote><p>According to the government's latest figures, closing Huntly would pretty much deal with our Kyoto liability.</p><p>Unfortunately they'll have no financial incentive to dothat (or switch it to gas) until 2010.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 15:24:22 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Damian Christie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49765#post49765</link>
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						<p>Oh... so much to talk about.</p><p>Right. First of all</p><p><strong>Brent</strong>: There is solar hot water heating, and solar electricity generation, two different things.  So yes, if you have solar hot water heating, you can't put electricity into the grid.  But you can have BOTH on the one house (or…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 14:54:48 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49763#post49763</link>
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						<p>Kyle<br />I'm assuming you mean photovoltaic panels for generating electricity as opposed to solar thermal panels for producing hot water.</p><p>If you're grid connected you can feed it back in (see above), or you can store it in batteries (expensive, require maintenance and replacement) or even as heat in the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 14:49:31 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49758#post49758</link>
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						<blockquote><p>Do people with solar panels on their roof now &ndash; what do they do with any surplus electricity during the day? I can't imagine all of them put it back into the grid, do they sink it into batteries, or does it just get lost?</p></blockquote><p>They other don't generate more…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 14:41:01 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49755#post49755</link>
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						<blockquote>Before we installed it, I did the math, and discovered that it would never pay for itself, if the cost of the capital is included. It was basically a break even scenario &ndash; ie the amount of money saved on electricity bills equals the interest costs on the $7000 required…</blockquote>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 14:34:21 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49752#post49752</link>
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						<blockquote><p>And of course, the further south you go, the less sunlight you get, due to the shorter days and the aspect effects (which is why the poles are colder than the tropics).</p></blockquote><p>While the south does have shorter days in winter, this is no barrier to solar hot water. You…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 14:20:42 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49745#post49745</link>
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						<p>Rich<br />They probably have heat pumps, which can be used in reverse as aircon, and is potentially a problem.  Hot weather means low hydro storage, Huntly constrained out by river temperature, transmission lines thermally constrained... and now a new peak demand for power to run heat pumps in reverse.  A…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 14:14:22 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew C</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49737#post49737</link>
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						<blockquote><p>How many Aucklanders have aircon? Even the apartment blocks and (most) hotels I've been in don't.</p></blockquote><p>I have done a small amount of power modeling in a few different countries, and peak demand side growth has almost almost always been driven by the increase in summer due to air con…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 13:57:03 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew C</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49736#post49736</link>
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						<p>Andrew</p><blockquote><p>I don't think I'm with you on solar power being the answer(suppose I will have to buy North and South to read the whole article &ndash; cunning marketing ploy). While the power is 'free' you still have to pay off the capital and maintenance &ndash; last time I worked…</p></blockquote>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 13:54:03 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49731#post49731</link>
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						<blockquote><p>the issue for us in Auckland will not be heating in the winter but cooling in the summer</p></blockquote><p>How many Aucklanders have aircon? Even the apartment blocks and (most) hotels I've been in don't.</p><p>Or do you mean that with global warming, it'll become essential. Harden up. Or move to…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 13:39:14 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Brent Jackson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49728#post49728</link>
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						<p>Damien wrote:</p><blockquote><p>Home Solar hot water heating makes a lot more sense than solar electricity generation in the first instance. But if there's leftover, put it into the grid.</p></blockquote><p>I'm no expert, but afaik home solar hot water heating does not produce electricity.  It heats water (either directly or, more…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 13:34:06 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49723#post49723</link>
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						You can feed power back into the grid from a small home generation system.  But you have the have a) the right equipment for power conditioning and safety b) agreement from the lines company c) a seperate compliant meter (or at least seperate register on your  meter) for export d)…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 13:25:44 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Mark Graham</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49711#post49711</link>
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						<blockquote><p>Are there any requirements to install solar water heating when building new houses?</p></blockquote><p>The answer is no. <a href="http://www.buildingguide.co.nz/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://www.buildingguide.co.nz/</a></p><p>EECA has an interest free loan that has been in place for over a year to encourage people to install and a total of 0 people (that's zero, nada, none) have…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 13:05:00 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49604#post49604</link>
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						<blockquote><p>Direct use of solar thermal has possibilites, but is reliant on good design and getting the kit installed at the right time.</p></blockquote><p>Are there any requirements to install solar water heating when building new houses? That would seem to make a great deal of sense, as that's when it is…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 10:31:02 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Don Christie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49600#post49600</link>
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						<blockquote><p>Jeez. I feel like I'm lining up with Damian for six of the best and I wasn't even at school that day.</p></blockquote><p>See? QED.</p><p>:-)</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 10:17:47 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49597#post49597</link>
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						<p>If you look at Tiwai as exporting renewable electricity, then it's a good thing for the economy and a good thing for the planet. Unfortunately we aren't at 100% renewable, but we could get there. </p><p>I think the answer is to close Huntly, not Tiwai. Genesis should have a business…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 10:04:16 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Damian Christie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49595#post49595</link>
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						<blockquote><p>Damien, I don't think I'm with you on solar power being the answer...While the power is 'free' you still have to pay off the capital and maintenance &ndash; last time I worked the numbers it was about five times the retail price of power.</p></blockquote><p>The people I interviewed worked out…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 09:56:14 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>David Slack</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49592#post49592</link>
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						<blockquote><p>I was making a funny</p><p><br />No shit.<br />I remember Russell once comparing his own "earnest" sto Slack's "clever".<br />Sorry to say I err on the earnest. Would like to be "clever" but marbles were in short supply round about '66.</p></blockquote><p>Jeez. I feel like I'm lining up with Damian for…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 09:19:41 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Felix Marwick</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49591#post49591</link>
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						<blockquote><p>Ahah. I just found a short biographical note on the author and the perspective makes more sense.</p></blockquote><p>Just to add to the biographical knowledge on David Round. He was the National Party candidate for Chch East at the last election and he was also seeking the nomination for the Selwyn…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 09:17:28 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49585#post49585</link>
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						Damien, I don't think I'm with you on solar power being the answer(suppose I will have to buy North and South to read the whole article &ndash; cunning marketing ploy).  While the power is 'free' you still have to pay off the capital and maintenance &ndash; last time I worked…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 08:53:07 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>slarty</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49584#post49584</link>
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						<p>I think the Rio Tinto (tiwai) thing is really quite simple.</p><p>1. They import bauxite (basically aluminium oxide) from Queensland.<br />2. They add cheap (by global standards) renewable electricity to separate off the Oxygen, leaving Aluminium.<br />3. They export the refined product.<br />4. They charge a premium due to the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 08:50:05 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49574#post49574</link>
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						<p>Back on the balance of payments thing... I'm sure I've mooted shutting Tiwai in the past. I couldn't find much googling, although there is some comment that various projects (including Tiwai) protected us from balance of payment issues in the 80s <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Big#Defining_outcomes" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">(here)</a>.</p><p>Apparently [[http://www.electricitycommission.govt.nz/opdev/modelling/gpas/May2007/Generation|the Electricity Commission has considered the demise…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 23:26:18 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49572#post49572</link>
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						<blockquote><p>If you can't win, be malicious while you're losing I say. Fuck 'em.</p></blockquote><p>I agree. At the least, commit all the money to social programmes, and dare the fuckers to cancel them.  They do it, they're a one-term government.  They don't, and they don't get to deliver on their promises.…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 23:08:33 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49571#post49571</link>
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						<blockquote><p>And why is it Michael Cullen keeps saying we have no money for this, no money for that (and by that I mean 'tax cuts'), we've got to tighten our belts and so on, then he forks out 2/3 of a billion dollars for some trains?</p></blockquote><p>Because in a budgetry…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 23:04:45 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49568#post49568</link>
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						<blockquote><p>And I'd probably say the same thing, which is why folks should be profoundly thankful the chances of either of us getting our hands on a ministerial warrant are non-existent.</p></blockquote><p>I think we should share one Craig. We could split the week &ndash; you'd do right wing stuff monday to…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 21:45:55 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Don Christie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49566#post49566</link>
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						<blockquote><p>I was making a funny</p></blockquote><p>No shit.</p><p>I remember Russell once comparing his own "earnest" sto Slack's "clever".</p><p>Sorry to say I err on the earnest. Would like to be "clever" but marbles were in short supply round about '66.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 20:38:59 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Paul Campbell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49558#post49558</link>
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						ooh ooh please please &ndash; can we in Dunedin just build a wind farm down there rather than the silly stadium (if you read the local paper apparently our rugby team is so good we're basing all our future economic development on the bucket loads on money it's going to…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 18:56:52 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49555#post49555</link>
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						<p>The current pseudo-market model for deciding which generators to run doesn't help. It's perfectly feasible to have a computer model that optimizes CO2 output whilst maintaining safe dam levels &ndash; that would give a more optimal allocation that a "market".</p><p>We also need to have a long term plan to…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 18:15:53 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>James Green</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49553#post49553</link>
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						Uh, from my vague understanding of economics, it's the movement of money generated by Tiwai Point. Something to do with the balance of payments and such. Basically, the smelther costs a s***load to run, and produces a high value product which is then sold, so it's to do with that…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 17:54:58 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Joanna</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49551#post49551</link>
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						If you shut down Comalco, what's going to happen to those lucky dip can recycling machines that you could win prizes from when you recycled?
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 17:37:53 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Damian Christie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49550#post49550</link>
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						<p>Oh, and Paul:</p><blockquote><p>seems to me that hydro and wind are a great mix &ndash; we'll just shut the hydro off and let the lakes fill when the wind blows right?</p></blockquote><p>Check out the North &amp; South piece for other ideas along the same vein.  Personally I think the answers are…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 17:33:12 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>George  Darroch</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49549#post49549</link>
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						<p>I thought that if you closed Tiwai Point, supply would be constrained, the global cost of aluminium would be increased, and demand would be reduced. People would use other things to build cars and window frames.</p><p>Politically, however, the cost of shutting down Southland's largest single employer would be pretty…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 17:32:34 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Damian Christie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49546#post49546</link>
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						<p>See, and *this* is why I through questions open for discussion.  To get proper answers.  Those question marks aren't rhetorical you see.</p><p>Rich: My fault, I'm mixing points, but I wasn't so much thinking about the climate change aspect of shutting Tiwai Pt, more our current issues with electricity.  But…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 17:28:27 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kumara Republic</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49545#post49545</link>
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						<p>Rich:</p><blockquote><p>(See also: is more immigration an environmental negative? Depends where they come from).</p></blockquote><p>Negative, if they settle in McMansions in Whitby or Clevedon and drive Explorers/Range Rovers to work. Positive, if they live in city apartments and don't drive a car.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 17:27:28 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Craig Ranapia</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49544#post49544</link>
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						<blockquote><p>If you can't win, be malicious while you're losing I say. Fuck 'em.</p></blockquote><p>And I'd probably say the same thing, which is why folks should be profoundly thankful the chances of either of us getting our hands on a ministerial warrant are non-existent.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 17:25:40 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Paul Campbell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49541#post49541</link>
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						Quite apart from Comalco I've been wondering about energy in general &ndash; why do we shift it betwen islands or rather why does it cost the same on both islands if we apparently lose 1/3 of it getting it there (my long ago recollection  of the efficiency of the Cook…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 17:19:19 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49538#post49538</link>
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						<p>Apart from the direct 900 jobs at the smelter, there is all the supporting roles to consider (doctors, couriers, suppliers etc etc).  What happened to small towns when the dairy factories were closed down?<br />What else do we get, Meridian and Transpower get a whack for making and transporting the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 16:52:47 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49537#post49537</link>
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						<p>The thing with Tiwai Pt is this. If NZ was on its own separate planet *and* we didn't use any aluminum here, then closing it would help carbon emissions.</p><p>As it is, if the smelter shut, then presumably a new or upgraded smelter somewhere else would take up the load.…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 16:49:03 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>simon g</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49536#post49536</link>
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						<p>On second thoughts, perhaps I overestimated Key's foresight:</p><p>Sunday Star-Times, March 23:</p><p>"Next up is the rail system, which Cullen is negotiating to buy back into government ownership. When asked by the Sunday Star-Times where National stands on the issue, Key repeatedly said he didn't believe the sale would go…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 16:45:54 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49535#post49535</link>
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						<blockquote><p>I guess it's fair enough that Key might not have thought that in these tough times the Government would actually be acquiring new assets. But it'll teach Key not to make open ended promises in future.</p></blockquote><p>I think just before the election, which Labour still looks like losing, the government…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 16:38:30 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Don Christie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49534#post49534</link>
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						<blockquote><p>relevant in this day and age of instant teleportation.</p></blockquote><p>By this logic we should abandon any kind of tax payer investment in roads. All it is doing is tying us to the tyranny of 19th century engineering.</p><p>How big a personal tax cut do you expect for $600million, by the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 16:35:12 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>simon g</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49529#post49529</link>
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						<blockquote><p>I guess it's fair enough that Key might not have thought that in these tough times the Government would actually be acquiring new assets. But it'll teach Key not to make open ended promises in future.</p></blockquote><p>If he couldn't predict this one, he should sack his advisers, or himself. He…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 15:56:25 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Public Address</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/cracker-all-aboard/?p=49528#post49528</link>
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						<p>Discussion from blog post.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 15:56:24 +1200</pubDate>
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