Gaaah. So not wanting to go there, either.

Indeed — let's not hand Ihimaera and his enablers a whole deck of racist cards to deal out as a distraction from his literary kleptomania. Hone Harawira and the whole MTS Rugby World Cup rights fiasco had filled up that bullshit bingo…

Yes, I for one am glad you chose that course of action Jolisa.

Very much a case of "don't go there."

It looks like there is going to be a Your Views on whether "Ihimaera should keep his job" on the Herald as soon as they fill their customary quota…

Am trying to think of a way of working Joe Orton into the conversation. On second thoughts, best not.

Yes, I for one am glad you chose that course of action Jolisa.

It looks like there is going to be a Your Views on whether "Ihimaera should keep his job"…

Let's say you've replaced the word "hello" with the word "sheep". This will likely result in a grammatically incorrect novel.

Stoppard made that work somehow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogg's_Hamlet,_Cahoot's_Macbeth

I highly recommend the 15 minute Hamlet if you get the chance.

Ear-worming strangers.

Am trying to think of a way of working Joe Orton into the conversation. On second thoughts, best not.

O dear heaven Craig! Instead of my usual nice bed-time fare (normally The Trout or gentler Mozart) I'm doomed to "Anything goes'! WITH YOUR WORDS!

Ear-worming strangers. A modest talent, but you work with what you've got!

They'll even get into WallE...

But in terms of G & S, I can't but think "Poor Wandering One" from Pirates of Penzance might be a good one to use here.

You can't beat a Cole Porter tune. Anything Goes, methinks?

__In olden days a hint of hocking
Was looked on as something shocking,
But now,…

Ihimaera borrows a paragraph from the Cornish missionary William Colenso for his Treaty of Waitangi scene.

William Colenso had (at least) two sons, one by his wife Elizabeth, another by her Maori maid, Ripeka. The white son, Ridley, went to Cambridge, then…

The Judge's Song" from Gilbert & Sullivan's "Trial by Jury."

and will the punishment fit the crime?

Nice one, Spike. (Instant flashback for music geeks, but for anyone struggling to recall the tune, it's here).

__When I Ehoa was called to the Arts my ambition…

Hes just working in the wrong genre

Not a Mark Danielewski fan, then?

Not yet – ta for the tip!

Footnotes have no place in a novel (unless you're Terry Pratchett, Kurt Vonnegut, or David Foster Wallace, I guess).

Not a Mark Danielewski fan, then?

Sorry I ever complained about the endnotes in Infinite Jest, now. At least they're right side up, in English, and by a single 'author'.

"My lovely wife (a linguist) speculates that it would be possible to develop a language in which there is only one grammatically correct way to write a 100,000 word novel."

English.

Take a grammatically correct novel and change some of the words. You'll either end up with a different…

Books don't generally sell based on who the editor was so it's always going to be easy for the accountants to say the editor is less important than the author and hence should be paid less

No, what the "accountants" do is pink slip all the editors and farm all…

Books don't generally sell based on who the editor was so it's always going to be easy for the accountants to say the editor is less important than the author and hence should be paid less

How I laughed! Often in the chain of things the author gets paid less…

But thus far the reaction seems to be one of dismissal, "plagiarism is unimportant ... it wasn't very much". That saddens me.

Can't remember if anyone already linked to Mr Litterick's dry take on this.

It is reassuring to know that the University takes all cases of plagiarism seriously, regardless…

Tim Tams vs Chit Chats being the obvious first episode.

Ooh, ooh – vegemite vs marmite.

I'd always thought a Basso Profundo was a particularly deep thinking latin perch

lolnui

I hate it when people engage in off-thread discussions

That's basically my entire raison d'être on teh internets. Oh dear.

Speaking of NZ classics and the ukulele, I once got a proper musician friend to work out the chords for Toy Love's 'Rebel'. But my skill level is far too…

might want to spend a little more lolly on their editors and prioritise the editing

I think it would be surprising if they did. Books don't generally sell based on who the editor was so it's always going to be easy for the accountants to say the editor is less…

I'd always thought a Basso Profundo was a particularly deep thinking latin perch – guess I was just piscine in the wind...

Haw! Nice to see you still on deck and seducing the innocent after all these years, Wertham. Anyway, you're an inspiration to hack one's own B. Profundo by…

"Duelling ukeleles" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

As Jolisa once suggested, we could remove the strings from our ukuleles and attempt to garrotte one another in order to settle the argument. This does seem like a reasonable way to get a definitive (and very final) answer to…

arm-wrestle

"Duelling ukeleles" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

I play it in C, but transposing into your basso profundo cowboy G, I'd use an A minor where you've got A7.

Always with the A minor...

So I've been having a few illuminating conversations with people on both ends of the literary editing process. Gosh the literary sausage factory is a mysterious business, even, or more so, when it's gourmet sausages we're talking about.

I have always assumed that authors submit really, really, really…

But that is absurd, don't you think? Imagine reading a novel then coming upon a description that is suddenly in quote marks with a footnote or endnote! No, better that you write a novel using all your own words, even if you have consulted other works for information.

Exactly. Footnotes…

But on the piano or ukulele you can play:

Blue [G]smoke goes drifting [G7]by into the [C]deep blue [A7]sky,
And [D]when I think of [D7] home I sadly [G]sigh...

I play it in C, but transposing into your basso profundo…

What interests me is that Turn It In offers a "personal" service called WriteCheck for the purpose of verifying whether you have cited your material properly, and runs your essay through the same "pipeline" as the regular faculty version, for the cost of a few $$.

Ironically, this…

I am now going to dissect – in a cherishing kindly listening sense – 'Blue Smoke " more

When you do, try playing it on the piano or (better still) ukulele.

We mostly hear it…

And should excerpts always be marked in some manner in the text, or can they be spliced in as long as you note somewhere that you consulted the book?

But that is absurd, don't you think? Imagine reading a novel then coming upon a description that is suddenly…

Anyone appreciate the Ana Hato version…

Richard: agreed (about the numbers)!

Islander: I'm gonna leap in and defend Ruru Karaitiana here. Whilst the tune to 'Blue Smoke' has echoes of 'Carolina Moon', the melody is actually (mostly) different. Try playing the melody to 'Carolina Moon' and singing 'Blue Smoke' along with it — you'll…

And yep, modern (from about 1890)kapahaka groups have borrowed tunes and set Maori to them. Not only 'Hoki Mai' – right up to "Blue Smoke" and "Pokarekare Ana"-

just as "God Save The Queen/King" also borrows its music-

I spotted both of those almost immediately, despite having no real musical skills – I wonder how the producer and band didn't, but I guess its the effect of repetition.

Same for me with "Shakermaker" by Oasis and the Coca-Cola song "I'd like to teach the world to sing". But…

The Flaming Lips track "Fight Test" contains elements (shall we say) from Cat Stevens "Father and Son", again unconsciously (Cat sued).

I spotted both of those almost immediately, despite having no…

I take your point about…

Would an early New Zealander, not a mariner, have found the Southern Cross dominant? I think not. Also, were are not actually under it much of the time, if ever.

Very good point.

The Southern Cross is actually not that easy to find in the sky — ironically, a…

Who knocked the manuscript into shape? Who compiled the list of sources, and who checked it against the author's own notes? Was the manuscript read page by page?

Don't famous authors with jobs in academia get grad students to compile all the local colour and historical stuff, so they can…

When I saw the glorious southern seascape, glittering by day with sun-stars and glowing by night under the gleaming Southern Cross and that arching canopy of a million stars...

do I detect another false step, a modern sensibility breaking through the thin…

or each word number of possible tenses

Just 12 active tenses, 12 days of Christmas, 12 male disciples...;)

To be fair, it's a lot easier to lift a melody unawares ('My Sweet Lord' from 'He's So Fine', for those who don't know) than it is to take whole sentences, tweak them and insert them into text. That's totally, uh, 'awares' on Ihimaera's part.

You mean like this:

In…

I think she is inviting you to a swingers party

Ding dong!

I think that there is a strong case for intertextuality, and it sounds like if he'd been open about his appropriation and reinterpretation of the works he'd have a much stronger work, but a thoroughly different work.

That…

Best, at this…

then you can foucault with the rest of us artsy types

I think she is inviting you to a swingers party

Or here's John Updike's six golden rules for book reviewers

These seem just a little self-serving on Updike's part, in that they are concerned with the critic's responsibilities to the writer. Fair enough, but there's also the critic's responsibility to the reader.
Jonathan Raban, who is a fine critic as…

... when the sea filled with dark purple spheres...

That's the problem with Australia, can't go swimming because of all the fucken purple spheres in the water.

I'd prefer "tough, but fair" myself.

Like Dinsdale Piranha? (NB plagiarising myself there).

Echoing Craig and JoJo: I remain perplexed about the editorial process in this case. Who knocked the manuscript into shape? Who compiled the list of sources,…

"Stately homo" — Quentin Crisp, no??

Indeed — and he was punning off Noel Coward's 'The Stately Homes of England', who apparently was not at all amused. :)

And as that stately homo of English lit., W.H. Auden, once observed:

"Stately homo" — Quentin Crisp, no??

There is a pretty good treatment of the maths in this book

I was flippant, once or twice, as a young reviewer, and while it's enormous fun, it's not fair. So these days I'm a bit of a sobersides and try to err on the side of gentle and polite.

I'd prefer "tough, but fair" myself. And as that stately homo of…

not all editors are as careful readers as we might wish they were

Then they are not competent editors. The good ones are meticulous readers, who read a wide range of books (for pleasure, not just for work). The excellent ones have (as well as their skills with language) some…

Sacha, Craig, David: thank you for chiming in along those lines. If it was crucifixion I was after, I'd have.. actually, that sentence doesn't even compute. I'm just not in the crucifixion business. I strive to write about…

On the number of holes, Jolisa is not digging them at random but is following her highly trained nose... I think you are right that your procedure would eventually give you a reliable estimate of the amount of plagiarized material — however, it is likely to undercount in two…

incorporate grammar and narrative sense into the event horizon

a Little Read Writing Hoot
– Grammar what crossed i s you have?
– all the better to make a duplicitous duality…

So then there is consensus that an end point for this system can hypothetically be calculated wth a reasonable degree of accuracy. Not near mind, just finite.

Well, it seems to me the tiny problem with that is that English isn't moribound. Words come and go constantly, so the odds…

I think "crucifixion" might be going a bit far as a description...

Um, yeah... How about remembering Sam Johnson's wise advice to authors who get all drama queeny about bad reviews.

**To commence author is to claim praise, and no man can justly aspire to honour, but at the hazard…

George Harrison [was] sued for plagiarism and lost and paid and we all moved somewhere new because as artists they did it for us.

To be fair, it's a lot easier to lift a melody unawares ('My Sweet Lord' from 'He's So Fine', for those who don't know) than it…

Excellent! Bill S was a journo at heart.

Actually... I think thats one of the main complaints about what passes for journalism these days, isnt it?

Too much emphasis on a ripping good yarn and not so much on accuracy or balance. :)

The bard plundered like a pirate, delivering to deadline without anything in the way of acknowledgements or footnotes.

Excellent! Bill S was a journo at heart.

Jolisa's crucifixion of the poor thief

I'll add that I actually feel very sorry for Prof. Ihimaera. And, clearly, so does Jolisa. I think "crucifixion" might be going a bit far as a description...

not wanting to start the whole copywrong discussion again, ok.

but anyone who cares about it (Ihimaera's employers for instance?) might be well advised to make a systematic search, rather than simply assuming that they already had a complete accounting of the "borrowings"

You'd like to think that the publisher has been presented with every note and reference and scrap…

So, he's the literary equivalent of a peeping Tom with a camera? Dude, I don't know if Witi is going to thank you for the help! :)

After Jolisa's crucifixion of the poor thief I'm sure I could apply bandages or something. BTW Jolisa, I thoroughly enjoyed the
"Less is…

I think with your calculation of the nonevent horizon David, you neglected to mention the plethora of literature previously written in other languages yet to be translated into English which may infringe the copyright of works as yet unwritten.

Ha! Because the English dictionary is bigger than other languages that's…

transgression of the commandments in the back of your mind. Witi did not steal his neighbours ox, he simply took a photo and stuck it in his book.

So, he's the literary equivalent of a peeping Tom with a camera? Dude, I don't know if Witi is going to thank…

I feel Witi may have taken a photo but he stuck it in a book he would like to sell to me and as good as claimed the ox was his interlectual property

It was his intellectual choice of what property to steal, and that is uniquely Witi. Like I…

Witi did not steal his neighbours ox, he simply took a photo and stuck it in his book.

I feel Witi may have taken a photo but he stuck it in a book he would like to sell to me and as good as claimed the ox was his interlectual…

transgression of the commandments in the back of your mind. Witi did not steal his neighbours ox, he simply took a photo and stuck it in his book.

Wasn't there something about coveting thy neighbour's oxen.. or was that wife?

The other title which caused problems was A Taste for Death. This was taken from four lines of verse which I had read, I think in a Spectator article, some years previously.

**Some…

Yay, somebody did the maths! We are nowhere near the Creative Event Horizon.

So then there is consensus that an end point for this system can hypothetically be calculated wth a reasonable degree of accuracy. Not near mind, just finite. Surely only a devout monk who believed in an apocalypse…

If every second or third hole they dig turns up something nasty, at what point can they be sure that they have discovered everything that is there to be found...

Okay, my statistical knowledge is very basic (of the "I sample n widgets from the production line and x amount…

I know that song lyrics, for example, and lines of poetry from living poets are always acknowledged on the copyright page these days.

You also have to get clearances for song lyrics and pay for them. Stephen King has a nice anecdote about how Bruce Springsteen's publishers were asking more…

+ permute? Is that a word?

It certainly is where I work. It is the result of verbing permutation, as Calvin would say.

+ permute? Is that a word?

You don't need to ask our permussion to make up new ones around here. We are neologism central, dude.

But that's still more permutations than atoms in the observable universe.

Yay, somebody did the maths! We are nowhere near the Creative Event Horizon. In fact, by Dr Haywood's calculations, the heat death of the universe will occur before we exhaust our typewriters AND our monkeys.

Phew. As a wee…

I must say, every day for the last couple of weeks, I have flipped back and forth between "surely I'm mistaken, and even if I'm not, is this really the novel's greatest failing?" and…

David Haywood asked, in the discussion thread for my last post: "Is Ihimaera's new novel — plagiarism questions aside — a good book?"

Yeah, sometimes I like to assume the persona of, say, a semi-literate former energy engineer (to randomly pull an occupation from the hat) who goes around asking…

Bedtime in my time zone, but carry on regardless!