"The Terrorism Files"

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  • Russell Brown,

    I also would have thought that in some ways it's worse that there are no names (although I can see why they would have to leave them out) because then those statements could stick to any one of the accused.

    You can actually spot the previously leaked quotes from Lockett and Iti. I guess the interesting thing is whether any of the really nasty stuff involves the activists.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Jimmy Southgate,

    I also would have thought that in some ways it's worse that there are no names (although I can see why they would have to leave them out) because then those statements could stick to any one of the accused.

    I thought that to, the DomPosts justifications for publishing felt pretty weak to me. Its also incredibly frustrating to have such a small snippet of the information, without context. I would much rather read all the evidence with names & dates included, than 1 page of quotes.

    Im still not sure I can go beyond deciding that some people said some dumb/somewhat scary stuff & some people did some dumb/scary stuff.

    Wellingtown • Since Nov 2006 • 103 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    I can certainly guess which one is Lockett, but nothing leaps out as Iti.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    there seems to be two threads to this going on...

    me, other thread:

    so does this mean the trial by media can officially start?

    those radicals deserve to be either locked up, or have their heads read.

    but a big section of maori will be the focus of intense race-hatred on account of the msm airing police material, entirely without context, and with minimal explanantion.

    i'm switching everything off till the dust settles.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • A S,

    What do you think the underlying issues are? Confused and crazy and violent and shocking as it all is, there is a festering issue there. This must be something to do with Tuhoe's valid sense of injustice about land loss which has somehow been distorted into this dangerous nonsense.

    Actually, Russell linked to an article at the end of the This Just In thread, which discusses a sense of disquiet amongst many Tuhoe about what has been going on.

    It is pretty important to remember that many hapu and iwi throughout NZ have experienced some pretty gross injustices. They don't run off and play wannabe guerilla as part of their indigenous nation fantasy though...

    There is a role for all of NZ to assist Maori (not just hapu and iwi) to achieve their goals, but those goals have to be positive goals that are pursued in a positive way.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2007 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    I thought that to, the DomPosts justifications for publishing felt pretty weak to me.

    Perhaps, but I think it's fair comment to say Phil Kitchin has been around long enough - and Fairfax has deep enough pockets - that this wouldn't go to press unless they were pretty sure they had a defense to publish.

    But I do agree with you, Jimmy, that I really hope the DomPost has fairly represented a 100 page + document, and not cherry picked the really scary shit.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Actually, Russell linked to an article at the end of the This Just In thread, which discusses a sense of disquiet amongst many Tuhoe about what has been going on.

    This one. As I said, I think a particular narrative has taken over since that's had the effect of drowning out things like this:

    Tuhoe Waikaremoana Trust manager Tama Nikora said his people had been struggling for years to have their voices heard.

    The tribe had a strong sense of cultural identity, but for the 19 per cent of members who still lived on their traditional lands there was little work and many people were beneficiaries.

    Nikora said the trust was trying to create some work in forestry, but their efforts were being thwarted by tribe radicals.

    "What they really want is work. If they were busy in employment they wouldn't be doing what they are doing," he said.

    Nikora believed there was some truth in the reports of military training and guerilla-style camps.

    He said for some Tuhoe there was no law but their law. "There's only a few actually living out there trying to hold the rest of the tribe to ransom," he said.

    "The older people are worried, they don't like what's going on. They don't think the police have over-reacted."
    He said young people out of work were easily led astray by more radical older members.

    "People need to answer the question, `do they subscribe to the treaty or not'," he said. "Because in Article Three, the right was given to the government to pass laws."

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    A S - Absolutely.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Stephen:

    I can certainly guess which one is Lockett, but nothing leaps out as Iti.

    This one is very similar to a previously leaked quote attributed to Iti:

    "I cut down all of my work, right down. Ah, I'm only focusing to go to war."
    Bugged suspect, April 26, 2007.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    I really hope the DomPost has fairly represented a 100 page + document, and not cherry picked the really scary shit.

    Well, obviously they've cherry-picked. The concern is whether they deliberately left out any ameliorating evidence.

    And a bigger concern is whether the 100 page + document left out anything pertinent.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Stevens,

    If you have ever lived in a country where one small group thinks it is its 'right' to go round letting off bombs and shooting people, (and yes, I have) then this sort of talk is both familiar and deeply disturbing.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 230 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    This one is very similar to a previously leaked quote attributed to Iti:

    did i already mention "trial by media"?

    it's a travesty that this was so badly mishandled that we'll never have a fair and impartial trial of the suspects in this case.

    and... what graeme said.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    There was a line in an Elvis Costello song & later on a movie of the last guy hanged in England. For the phrase "Let him have it Chris" & Chris shot the cop.
    Did he intend the cop to be shot or pass the pistol over?

    Our language can be quite brutal and war can mean struggle as in a war on poverty.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/war

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    My last was in response to the quote attributed to Iti.

    He knows he's being watched. It doesn't make sense he would say it as portrayed.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Maureen Jansen,

    How serious will the firearms trials be for the suspects? Can this discussion harm their chances?

    How do you all see the dignified and sensible utterances of Tame Iti's partner and son in the light of what has been revealed?

    His son said what hurt the most was his father being called a terrorist. He seemed to be a lovely young fellow to me.

    Iti himself said on Close-up that he would never hurt anyone. His partner said Iti was a gentle man (aka teddy bear)

    And thanks for the link to the Tuhoe article - I'd read it before but it was good to read it again!

    Rotorua • Since Nov 2006 • 16 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    Maureen, you're making the false assumption that a person can only be brutal or gentle. People are more than capable of being selectively either depending on the context. For a case in point, try to measure your own feelings about killing cows and chickens vs pandas and baby seals.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Morrison,

    I can see why the Police thought they should intervene earlier rather than later and hence why they went for the TSA. Broad never seemed that keen on looking at this thru the cloudy lens of 'terrorism'.

    I'm in two minds about the DP's actions, it may turn out to be legal but I agree with che's fear of trial by media. On the other hand the supporters of those arrested have felt no compunction to act in a reasonable fashion and have played out in the media their own anti-Police and anti-State agenda. So I don't have sympathy for them.

    I suppose it’s now about what happens to the state of play of race relations in general and Tuhoe’s legitimate grievances in particular. I’ve got faith in Labour to act sensibly but I’m not sure about some other politicians who should be acting more sensibly.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Excuse me? Has anyone around here is arguing that threats of that nature shouldn't have been responded to - and taken seriously?

    Well, yes. That was the overall impression I was getting. Maybe, as others have said, growing up in a country where terrorism was a daily threat and the resulting corruption of the police response equally damaging makes me more suspicious of both sides of the debate.

    I am also suspicious about these leaks. As I said yesterday, I wonder who benefits most from them.

    But the most pertinent comment was from the article Russell linked to:

    Tuhoe Waikaremoana Trust manager Tama Nikora said his people had been struggling for years to have their voices heard.

    That's a story of dispossession and disenfranchisement that should be familiar to lots of Kiwis with Irish or Scottish roots.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    RB: If this is the nature of the evidence, it's disturbing, but what charges it warrants other than the firearms ones, I'm not sure.

    Which in itself seems disturbing - to my mind this sort of stuff has stepped over the "freedom of speech/freedom to be a wingut" line to something that I feel our police should have the ability to interrupt.
    Perhaps firearms charges are enough, but if all those weapons had been registered ones, what would the police have been able to do?
    (I only quickly followed some of this stuff in the other thread so apologies if it was covered there by Graeme et al)...

    I did think this was a bit of a stretch from the DP:
    Those still facing firearms charges are entitled to a fair trial, but those trials are a year or more away. Revealing now what police found relating to the terrorism charges they wished to lay, but which the solicitor-general declined to authorise, will not influence those firearms cases.
    Really? In a years time if I'm called up for jury duty on this stuff (touch wood) I don't think I'll be sitting there going "Tame Iti... Iti... yeah I vaguely recall something. Wasn't he on NZ Idol?"

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Chaos Buddha,

    Our language can be quite brutal and war can mean struggle as in a war on poverty.

    . . . and war can also mean a handful of fanatics blowing a group of innocent people to buggery just to make a point/gain attention.

    The questions is: which are you more comfortable erring on . . ?

    Would you prefer the police mistakingly arrest a poet for a bit of literal verbosity, or leave all potential nutters lie until they actually take innocent lives in the name of whatever-cause-was-alleviating -their-boredom-today . . ?

    Nirvana • Since May 2007 • 27 posts Report Reply

  • Hayden Wilson,

    For my part I 'm intrigued by the comments and the response. Certainly the comments are worrying and suggest illegal activity, but are they really any different from what would be heard if the Police bugged any one of the numerous gangs in NZ?

    Should they have taken action based on what was said, of course. Does it warrant the response they used, I'm not so sure - we have the run of the mill criminal law to deal with this kind of behaviour (as no doubt it will now).

    What worries me is the seemingly instinctive response along the lines of "well, the TSA didn't work to get these guys, so we need to strengthen the TSA" rather than "the TSA didn't work because it wasn't intended to work in these circumstances, lets use the powers we already have..."

    Since Nov 2006 • 27 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    I'm glad that we'll never know whether this sort of homicidal ranting would ever have materialised into actual violence, but those "training camps" must have come close to flipping the "planning" switches of the TSA.

    There is a role for all of NZ to assist Maori (not just hapu and iwi) to achieve their goals, but those goals have to be positive goals that are pursued in a positive way.

    Ditto that. It can hard to frame actual policies that everyone can agree on, but we all want Maori to succeed.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    Broad never seemed that keen on looking at this thru the cloudy lens of 'terrorism'

    And with all the talk of declaring war on New Zealand, I'd head back to treason:

    Crimes Act, section 73
    Every one owing allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen in right of New Zealand commits treason who, within or outside New Zealand,—
    ...
    (b) Levies war against New Zealand; or
    ...
    (f) Conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in this section.

    You still have the same problem of whether there's any evidence whatever they were doing got far enough, but I suspect evidence of a joint agreement to wage war on New Zealand doesn't need to be quite as target-specific as that around a joint agreement to kill someone.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Buddha - sure a tap on the shoulder and take away any weapons - talk like this shud have licence & firearms revoked. Including in the variouys gun clubs of NZ.

    But it is becoming clear the raid on Ruatoki was OTT.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Is that it?

    I'm sure if you bugged the National Front, or indeed a group of policemen off on a hunting or rugby trip, you'd hear all this and worse.

    What they haven't got is any actual plan to do anything. "Just wait till he visits somewhere and just blow them" isn't a coherent conspiracy.

    I'd also suggest that making all this selective, inadmissable evidence public where any juror will be able to google it is pretty much the worst kind of contempt of court and will make any kind of fair trial on the firearms charges impossible.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

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