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Speaker: Won't Someone Please Not Think of the Children?

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  • Craig Ranapia,

    Text has always been treated differently

    And not only text. I don't really want to relitigate the whole debate over Robert Mapplethorpe, but I don't think you've got to be some prude to ask yourself why a photo of one man pissing in another's mouth is 'art' on the walls of Wellington's City Gallery, but automatically objectionable within the covers of a glossy fetish stroke-rag or in the back room of your local Video Sleazy. Explicit and prolonged rape scenes or depictions of sadistic torture are OK in films that are subtitled and screen at the Film Festival, not so much at the multiplex...

    Could it be that (whisper it!) there's a class hierarchy here -- enlightened middle-class people like us go to museums and arthouse cinemas, and buy 'erotica' from independent booksellers like Unity and Parsons. The hoi polloi... well, how can you trust them not to go off on a perverted rampage? They're not like us.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • andrew llewellyn,

    Explicit and prolonged rape scenes or depictions of sadistic torture are OK in films that are subtitled and screen at the Film Festival, not so much at the multiplex...

    Heh, there used to be an RFS classification for movies - Restricted to Film Societies.

    That's where you go to see the real stuff! (Pre-pron days - and actually, not so real).

    Since Nov 2006 • 2075 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Heh, there used to be an RFS classification for movies - Restricted to Film Societies.

    They took the 'only for qualified academics' restriction off de Sade's Justine here almost simultaneously with me gaining the requisite qualifications. Now it's available free on the net in its entirety.

    Let. Down.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • David Cormack,

    Explicit and prolonged rape scenes or depictions of sadistic torture are OK in films that are subtitled and screen at the Film Festival, not so much at the multiplex...

    I agree with Craig.

    It amused me no end that Bully was only allowed to be screened at Festivals and to Universities but then the Society for the Protection of Community Standards complained, the film had an injunction slapped on it then at appeal got general release. The only country in the world to give it such.

    Ha.

    Glad to see that the prudish system of repression that is so alive and well in the States hasn't crept into the mainstream here.

    Suburbia, Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 218 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings,

    I always thought that at least part or the illegality of "obscene" images was due to the potential for exploitation of real people in the making of. Unless the author has some very intense research methods this just isn't an issue with text.

    My parents recall seeing a film that had to be screened to male and female audiences separately.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 719 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    My parents recall seeing a film that had to be screened to male and female audiences separately.

    It was the film of James Joyce's Ulysses. That censor's decision achieved world fame, or infamy.

    It was banned outright in Ireland, I think, and in Canada, the University of Toronto until 1955 required students to warrant that they were free of "mental problems" before reading Joyce's book, and other books such as the works of de Sade.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings,

    That's the one.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 719 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    I always thought that at least part or the illegality of "obscene" images was due to the potential for exploitation of real people in the making of. Unless the author has some very intense research methods this just isn't an issue with text.

    Indeed, that's pretty much the crux of it: that photographic porn requires an actual real incident to photograph or film. But writing?

    Also, according to the answers I got from a very helpful woman at the NZ Chief Censor's Office, in NZ the writing doesn't even have to be distributed to be considered obscene. Just writing something down could be a crime.

    I'm not sure if the amount of technical obscenity on my hard-drive makes me feel cool or weird or what.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    Hah, forget Jaqueline Carey; at age eleven I procured from my school library the biographical story of a Saudi princess, which involved plenty of child abuse, kinky sex, etcetera. And some of that was mild compared to the historical novels I came across in the public library. Anyone who thinks that the internet is the only place innocent children could possibly come across this stuff is either stupid or had an exceptionally sheltered childhood.

    This issue is of particular concern to fandom - last year LiveJournal, in response to complaints, deleted a whole lot of journals under the guise of purging child porn. Included among the deleted communities were those which were communites for abuse survivors and a discussion group for the book Lolita, as well as several fanfic communities - because clearly when you write about two fictional sixteen-year-olds having sex, it's child porn! Most of the journals were later put back up after a storm of outrage, but it was definitely a warning sign.

    I think Craig is entirely right - it's fine for the middle and upper classes to walk into Borders and buy their kinky lesbian BDSM porn - and they're sure as hell not age-testing for that, let alone in a library! - but the internet as seen as more dangerous because it's available to everyone. I think it's also seen as an easy target - people are primed to be worried about sex on teh Intarwebs. They're primed against censorship and/or banning of books, because only uneducated people do that. So down go the websites.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    Could it be that (whisper it!) there's a class hierarchy here

    Well I'm sure if you were patient you could find other reasons in terms of the classifications criteria; I assume fewer people see festival movies (especially in the past?) and for actual film societies I assume someone has your name. But on the other hand - yes, yes there could.

    While we're comparing fields, I seem to recall there has never been theatre censorship here. There's you scripts and your acts-performed in public, but not the play per se.

    In other news the SPCS get to have GTA IV's classification reviewed.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    This issue is of particular concern to fandom - last year LiveJournal, in response to complaints, deleted a whole lot of journals under the guise of purging child porn

    Indeed. This has included banning Harry Potter slash-fic if it's not clear which book the writing is non-canon for, and therefore how old the participants are. Never mind if it's twincest.

    I think it's also seen as an easy target - people are primed to be worried about sex on teh Intarwebs.

    Yup. And I think the justification for that list of stuff to chase after in particular is entirely based on how reluctant people would be to defend them. People outside the scope of vanilla privilege are easier targets.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Luther Blissett (an Italian author collective some of you might know for the novel "Q") wrote an invective a few years back called Suffer the Little Children on the hysteria surrounding paedophilia and how it became an instrument to enact draconian censorship laws and control communication on the Internet in a broader sense. The public prosecutor of the particular case they attacked ended up suing the publisher and managed to have the book withdrwan from publication and destroyed, and the websites carrying it were ordered to delete it, but of course it can still be read in all its cached glory thanks to Google.

    The summary in English is here, under "Lasciate che i bimbi affair"

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Russell. Can we please have BY lines on System? I had to make the giant leap over to PA to find that Emma wrote this piece.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    While I'm linking, photographer Polixeni Papapetrou of Austarlia's most famous naked six-year-old will be at Wintec next month for their Spark festival if anyone want her angle on that business.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Another little irony. I live on the North Shore, and was quite surprised to find that a copy of Alan Moore and Melinda Grebbie's graphic novel Lost Girls was on closed shelf access (i.e. you have to ask a librarian), was withdrawn and when I made inquiries as to why I was told it was "in response to complaints -- and after receiving advice that it might fall foul of censorship legislation".

    First, I can't believe it was purchased without the library being fully aware that it is a graphic novel that it's authors cheerfully describe as pornographic -- and includes images (drawn by a woman, FWIW) depicting underage sex, lesbianism, incest, and rape.

    That's too offensive to be made available to patrons of the North Shore Libraries. But the conversation was firmly and politely brought to a conclusion when I pointed out that the same body is quite comfortable holding a copy of Brett Easton Ellis' American Psycho on closed shelf. That book is, as Emma puts it, well outside my 'squick thresh-hold' -- not least for the lengthy description of the woman who is murdered by having a nail gun inserted in her vagina, then mutilated after she's been repeatedly raped and brutalised. And is also classified R18.

    Funny old world, isn't it?

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Russell. Can we please have BY lines on System? I had to make the giant leap over to PA to find that Emma wrote this piece.

    Good point.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • paulalambert,

    This new moralism has no hope of getting pron off the internet: I was right about that. What I hadn't realised was how much damage could be done trying.

    Tell me about it ! Where is this all leading ... first they came for the porn . . .
    After working in drug policy reform for so long, I really wonder about the corpses that are continually stacking up; caused by damage from moralist political and other leaders' supposedly unintended consequences, or not. Grrr.

    chch • Since Dec 2006 • 107 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Funny old world, isn't it?

    It most certainly is, but we're not seriously surprised that pictures are more readily censored than words, are we? There is a reason why we refer to a particularly vivid description as being "graphic", and I think that most people would recognise this hierarchy of affect.

    The issue of pornography adds a layer, of course, as Emma observed: writing about sex involving children is not the same as filming sex involving children (regardless of whether the latter might be simulated). But drawing sex involving children is also different than writing about it. If you believe that pornography corrupts, you'll aim to ban all forms of representation, but the written form generally comes last in the pecking order.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • paulalambert,

    And this morning I read this Death of Free Internet is Imminent- Canada Will Be Test Case which I'm hoping is merely conjecture at this point.

    chch • Since Dec 2006 • 107 posts Report Reply

  • richard,

    The charges related to material on the site which depicted the assault, rape and murder of children.

    For some reason, I am not feeling the outrage on this one. It is one thing to write the story as "therapy", it is a different matter again to post it on the internet.

    You seem to be making a "slippery slope" argument, one no more compelling than the usual squawking from the religious right that (say) doing away with legal discrimination against homosexuals will bring about the end of the world as we know it.

    Not looking for New Engla… • Since Nov 2006 • 268 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    But drawing sex involving children is also different than writing about it. If you believe that pornography corrupts, you'll aim to ban all forms of representation, but the written form generally comes last in the pecking order.

    The other thing writing allows you to do is get inside the heads of the participants. It makes it possible to make issues of consent much more clear-cut where sometimes with pictures or film it can be very open to interpretation, especially with BDSM.

    One of the things that really bothers me about so much censorship is that it seems to be based on what is portrayed, not how it's portrayed.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    For some reason, I am not feeling the outrage on this one. It is one thing to write the story as "therapy", it is a different matter again to post it on the internet.

    And how is that different from the dozens of fairly graphic accounts of surviving sexual abuse I can walk into Borders and purchase? Some people get their stories published in a book. Some people post them on the 'net. If it works for them, fine. But you can't condemn one without the other.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And this morning I read this Death of Free Internet is Imminent- Canada Will Be Test Case which I'm hoping is merely conjecture at this point.

    I'm leaning towards "crazy conspiratorial bullshit" ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    The other thing writing allows you to do is get inside the heads of the participants. It makes it possible to make issues of consent much more clear-cut

    Not following you there. You can write a story in which a woman or child is sexually assaulted and then starts to enjoy it, and it won't be any less problematic than the same story represented in any other medium.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Graham,

    Indeed, that's pretty much the crux of it: that photographic porn requires an actual real incident to photograph or film. But writing?

    I think there is a reason that they are gunning for writing. How long before there is a photographic child porn case where the defence is "It's all CG" Having a picture won't be proof of anything.

    Brett Easton Ellis' American Psycho on closed shelf. That book is, as Emma puts it, well outside my 'squick thresh-hold' -- not least for the lengthy description of the woman who is murdered by having a nail gun inserted in her vagina, then mutilated after she's been repeatedly raped and brutalised.

    Never read it, not keen to. I thought it must have led to an interesting thanksgiving dinner conversation in the Bale/Steinem household though.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 118 posts Report Reply

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