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Speaker: The Spirit Level

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  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Lucy Telfar Barnard,

    Because some (a few) people choose a simpler and/or lower consumption life, then all people who live with less must have chosen to live that way.

    And because everyone starts from scratch with middle-class values already hard-wired in, right?

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4591 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell,

    My parents were children of the depression, my mother English, my father Scottish. The values I learned from them included frugality - neither were raised in middle class households.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 487 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to John Farrell,

    poor is a choice,

    NO its not.
    You misunderstood my cynicism. Yes I'm proudly cynical of most human BS and 99% of the nonsense we dream up is BS. Including the post you linked to

    Can you choose when and where to be born? Who your parents are? Not that that has anything to do with it.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell, in reply to andin,

    You misunderstood my irony.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 487 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to John Farrell,

    You misunderstood my irony.

    There's a bit of that about lately.
    Just to be clear on middle class values - when the state no longer offers the means for every citizen to maximise their potential through educational opportunities, such things become restricted to those who can afford them. That libertarian link assumes that everyone starts from scratch with the kind of awareness of possibilities that have become the stuff of class privilege.

    Many of the post-WW2 generation were able to rise from working class families to the professions with only a state school education. Yet they'll happily spend more than the annual income of a beneficiary on private school fees to give their kids what they believe is an advantage.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4591 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    My father used his postwar educational opportunity (he was in the navy) to gain a qualification as a health inspector. When we emigrated to New Zealand, he became middle class - Scots are difficult to "place" by accent.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 487 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to John Farrell,

    You misunderstood

    What again...well in my defence, it was a link posted with no explanation.
    Just the L word

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • tussock,

    I've met several libertarians over the net in the last couple years.

    They were young, as most are, and mostly you just have to point out how they're wrong and they can actually see it, apologise, and get on with not being a libertarian.

    Like, it's obviously a ridiculous thing to believe in.

    I'm not quite sure how people get through into being an older Libertarian without that experience, but I think it's got something to do with having enough money that they only ever have to listen to people who already agree with them, by virtue of withholding it from those who don't.

    Since Nov 2006 • 608 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    As for myself, even though I'm in paid work, I've basically found the ladder of opportunity missing all of its rungs.

    i've often pondered why i made it out.

    i keep landing on "white male".

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to tussock,

    They were young, as most are, and mostly you just have to point out how they're wrong and they can actually see it, apologise, and get on with not being a libertarian.

    my experience is that many are heavily self-aggrandising. they work in a service station while studying, and finding that they're around or above average intelligence they become convinced they're metahumans...

    we can only hope they eventually become humans again.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell, in reply to tussock,

    They think, because they have the money, that is was their virtuous behaviour which gained it for them. This reinforces their belief that everyone should be like them.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 487 posts Report Reply

  • chris, in reply to tussock,

    being a libertarian.

    Like, it’s obviously a ridiculous thing to believe in.

    Noted. So
    1. ̶R̶i̶g̶h̶t̶-̶l̶i̶b̶e̶r̶t̶a̶r̶i̶a̶n̶i̶s̶m̶
    2. ̶L̶i̶b̶e̶r̶t̶a̶r̶i̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶o̶c̶i̶a̶l̶i̶s̶m̶

    Mawkland • Since Jan 2010 • 1302 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to chris,

    !?! How do you format text to get strikethrough on this site?
    <strike>HTML doesn’t work</strike>; is there some delimiter to use instead?

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1889 posts Report Reply

  • chris, in reply to linger,

    Here you go linger: http://www.piliapp.com/generator/strikethrough-text/

    and while It’s on my mind: Çatalhöyük (7500 BC -5700 BC) pop. 5-7000

    Çatalhöyük had no apparent social classes, as no houses with distinctive features (belonging to royalty or religious hierarchy, for example) have been found so far. The most recent investigations also reveal little social distinction based on gender, with men and women receiving equivalent nutrition and seeming to have equal social status, as typically found in Paleolithic cultures.

    Mawkland • Since Jan 2010 • 1302 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to chris,

    Ah, wholesale char-conversion!
    That is a useful thing indeed.

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1889 posts Report Reply

  • chris, in reply to linger,

    It is, if only it worked on people.

    Mawkland • Since Jan 2010 • 1302 posts Report Reply

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