Speaker by Various Artists

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Speaker: The Government you Deserve

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  • BenWilson,

    It's hard to see how nutting out an exit plan and then putting it to the people is ignoring their will. But then I don't live in under Westminster democracy any more so perhaps I have forgotten what a pale shade of democracy it is, how little experience they have with such simple ideas. How ironic that this is the very system that Brexit is a vote to make supreme again.

    If it then leads to a massive rise and election of the UKIP, then perhaps that is the due process here. The people who initiated Brexit take lead on organizing it. Of course this is more likely to be calling a bluff and there is no chance of a one issue party gaining even a significant minority. So the off chance that Britain has actually lapsed into collective insanity is still not a good reason to not enter into a sane democratic engagement with the withdrawal process.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I guess what I'm saying here is that there never was a more appropriate time for a proper representative leader to rise above the madness and lay out a sensible path. I'm personally not that much of a fan of representative democracy because I think the leadership can too easily ignore the popular will. But that is the system in most of the democratic world, and it is definitely the system in Britain. Now is the time for the value, the famous practicality, the robustness of that system to show itself. If not an elected leader, if no one will stand up, then perhaps the disaster clause, the official head of the state, could be calling for that. This is a serious enough choice for her to make her displeasure at the craven vacillation of the supposed leadership known. There is not even a leadership to demand her abdication for such arrogance. FFS this is the system the Brexit supporters are voting for? It's beyond irony and into laughing stock territory.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell, in reply to BenWilson,

    A leader? We'll have to see what the focus groups say, and do some polling.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 487 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to BenWilson,

    I have wondered why the monarchy isn't doing anything, or preventing anything from being done.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to steven crawford,

    I expect it's for similar reasons that the elected leadership isn't. Too cowardly, too worried about their own position. Which is bizarre in both cases, because the main reasons given for the existence of the monarch and the non-proportional democracy by representatives is that they're so wonderfully decisive and practical and capable. But what they're showing is the exact opposite, disarray, distancing, fear, weakness, uncoordination. On both sides of the political fence, too. It's quite pathetic.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to BenWilson,

    I expect it's for similar reasons that the elected leadership isn't. Too cowardly, too worried about their own position.

    The furtively entitled nature of the Black Spider Memos appears to support that view.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4591 posts Report Reply

  • william blake, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Sunderland was my old home town in blighty and the NY Times seems to miss a couple of important points as well as contradicting its own stats. The EU take of the 'small' sum of £8b compared to its largesse, to the community,of £450m over six years, is obviously disproportionate and while the funds may not trickle North from Westminster the anomaly is obvious.
    To blame Sunderlands recession squarely on global competition in the passive sense is forgetful; to say China can do it cheaper than the poor North ignores the political system which cracked very strong unions and forcibly closed the mines and steel yards that provided the wherewithal for the shipbuilders.
    Nothing good may come of Brexit for Suderland but then Northeners do like to share their misery about.

    Since Mar 2010 • 379 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell, in reply to william blake,

    Interesting, William. I was born in Gateshead, but left there to come here when I was 4.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 487 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to steven crawford,

    Interesting stuff. It's a pity the article doesn't say whether she did or didn't veto the particular acts listed.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    The royals might not learn much at their public schools (private tutor in the case of her Maj) but they do study British history.

    It's almost 400 years since the Battle of Bosworth Field settled the question of parliamentary sovereignty and got the first King Charles' head lopped. I don't think there's much of an appetite to revisit this.

    Especially not on an issue where the populace is more or less equally divided - whichever side the queen intervened on, it'd ensure that 50% of the population developed a firm sense of republicanism almost overnight.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    I don’t think there’s much of an appetite to revisit this.

    I'm not so sure. It's a game they are very careful how they play, sure. But there's not going to be any monarchs losing their heads in this day and age, for starters. And Charles, at least, has been a fan of having political opinion. He clearly thinks it's a real job, even if his Mum's policy has been to treat it as entirely titular. At least so they say. Who can know how much real influence is wielded by someone in constant contact with the elected PM, who holds an official position that carries a lot of gravitas? Especially since the matter at hand really does go to many matters relating to Bosworth Field and far beyond. When sovereignty itself is what is at stake, I find it almost impossible to believe that the sovereign having no opinion is either true, or axiomatically wise.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • Australopithecus, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    I think you meant Battle of Naseby, Bosworth Field got us Tudors. I wish I could credit my NZ state school education, but I just used te interwebs.

    Te Pahu • Since Apr 2014 • 13 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to BenWilson,

    Well, the dwindling number of constitutional monarchies (I exclude quasi-absolute monarchies like Thailand) do follow the approach that the sovereign is required to have no opinion (and/or, as in the case of Sweden, an explicit exclusion from taking a constitutional role).

    I doubt Charles III will get beheaded. But he might well either be personally asked to abdicate, deposed by Act of Parliament or force a republic into play.

    Why is one random person (chosen from an inbred, isolated and privileged family) considered an effective check and balance? You don't go to a hereditary dentist...

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Australopithecus,

    You are quite correct. I don't know how Bosworth Field lodged itself in my head.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Well it's yet another one of those battles over who's king. Oh so important when you have a monarchy.

    I doubt Charles III will get beheaded. But he might well either be personally asked to abdicate, deposed by Act of Parliament or force a republic into play.

    He could. Or they might just let him carry on, ignoring him where convenient, letting him say whatever he likes. No monarch has been forced to abdicate for a long, long time. I doubt there's a British politician with the stones to do it now.

    BTW, I'm not a royalist. Quite the opposite, I think it's ridiculous. But it's the system, and I believe in holding those in charge to account when a system breaks down. I don't hold out any hope that the Queen will have anything to say. But I think she should. This is one of the few times where it might matter, where it might actually justify the position even existing. That she will sit back and let the nation collectively shit its pants and die is just a testament to the complete inadequacy of the existing system.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    No monarch has been forced to abdicate for a long, long time

    80 years this December? And for unwisely choosing a partner, rather than any political infelicities. (Though there was an undercurrent of that, and he wound up spending much of WW2 in aristocratic exile in the Bahamas, which was considered to be somewhere he couldn’t be suborned by the Germans from).

    I suspect if the unelected monarch took a stance on this, then those who disagreed would take every opportunity to get rid of them and probably the monarchy as soon as they were in a position to do so. And the only clearly stated ideology of the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Windsors is the continuation of their dynasty.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank,

    I suppose a conspiracy theorist would assume that a black spider lurks at the centre of the interweb. As someone who had their psyche taken over by the deep-green thingy back in '68 (underground newspaper feature on agribusiness poisoning the soil in the USA) I can vouch for the fact that some of us have never lived in caves.

    I got my head around the novel idea that the monarchy could be part of the solution rather than part of the problem when I acquired a copy of the book Charles issued a few years ago, detailing his beliefs and practices. I was genuinely astonished at the extent of his enterprise through recent decades. There is no doubt that the guy has more acuity and flair than his public image suggests, nor that he is not merely an authentic dark greenie, but he also has established a track record of remarkable accomplishments in that arena.

    I think he's smart enough to hold off till we see which way the wind blows, post brexit, and assess whether the new PM is providing the necessary moral leadership. I suspect he would only issue an advisory if the incomer seems clueless.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Rich Lock,

    re-wilding large tracts of the UK (wolves and otters and bears,

    They're make better neighbours than some hair reduced bipeds, I can see his point.
    that said still a ridiculous straw(yes)man

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    don't know how Bosworth Field lodged itself in my head.

    For want of a nail the shoe was lost....

    The earliest reference to the full proverb may refer to the death of Richard III of England at the Battle of Bosworth Field.

    The proverb of course ending with: "For the failure of battle the kingdom was lost".

    For want of caring the voters were lost;
    For want of the voters the referendum was lost.....

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood, in reply to Rich Lock,

    Attachment

    For want of the voters the referendum was lost…..

    Except turnout was pretty good

    That not much of a relationship slope line- you can draw a horizontal line through the uncertainty area.

    The trend line for Remain voters being less capable of putting a cross in a box is much stronger https://thoughtfulbloke.wordpress.com/2016/06/28/when-i-said-stupid-people-shouldnt-vote-i-didnt-mean-me/

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to BenWilson,

    It's hard to see how nutting out an exit plan and then putting it to the people is ignoring their will. But then I don't live in under Westminster democracy any more so perhaps I have forgotten what a pale shade of democracy it is, how little experience they have with such simple ideas. How ironic that this is the very system that Brexit is a vote to make supreme again.

    It's probably the most pragmatic solution, but I don't think it's the Westminster democracy that the main problem here (although they've shown themselves utterly incapable of organising a gang of small boys to piss up a wall). It's that Farridge (rhymes with garage) and his ilk will be whipping up populist outrage at anything that they can make to look like an attempt to outflank the stated will of the people. The referendum has laid bare some deep faultlines in UK society that have been 40+ years in the making. Someone quoted 'eton rifles' earlier. I commented to a friend a day or two ago that even taking Thatcher, the Cold War and the imminent threat of thermonuclear annihilation out of the equation, it's funny how many protest and political songs from the late '70's and '80's are still relevant, with a word or two of updating here and there. You could add even more Paul Weller (Going Underground, Time for Truth, Down in the tube station at midnight), Billy Bragg ((New England), The Specials (Ghost Town), The Clash (White Riot), New Model Army (Smalltown England, Vengeance, more or less any track from 1985's 'no rest for the wicked'), Chumbawumba's entire discography.....

    One might be forgiven for thinking it's almost as if we never properly addressed the underlying socioeconomic causes at all.

    In [a 2015] interview with Mojo, Paul Weller struck out against Prime Minister David Cameron who claimed his liking for The Jam classic 'Eton Rifles': "The whole thing with Cameron saying it was one of his favourite songs... I just think, 'Which bit didn't you get?'" People say, 'Why don't you write any more political songs?' But I would just write exactly the same fucking things I wrote thirty-odd years ago

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    There's an interesting article here comparing and contrasting the differences between the Scottish Independence referendum and the Brexit referendum. The main difference being that all of the issues were worked out and discussed in advance....

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to David Hood,

    Except turnout was pretty good

    Not exactly how I meant it. Want of understanding of popular opinion on the part of our elected representatives would be closer, but doesn't quite scan so well....

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Rich Lock,

    "...Paul Weller struck out against Prime Minister David Cameron who claimed his liking for The Jam classic 'Eton Rifles': "The whole thing with Cameron saying it was one of his favourite songs... I just think, 'Which bit didn't you get?'"

    Reminds me of the young Bob Dylan's account of being congratulated by a group of elderly women after performing With God on Our Side on TV. So nice to hear young folks doing songs about God again.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4591 posts Report Reply

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