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Speaker: The Fabians: There is an alternative

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  • Sam F,

    I think that 'think tank' relates more to a container, not an armoured vehicle.

    That's just what they wanted us to think. More than meets the eye...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1609 posts Report Reply

  • Alien Lizard (anag),

    tanks for nuttin'...

    of course there are ways of
    stopping a tank in its tracks

    and at least the Russians have stopped
    abandoning them in forests

    but Think Tanks are also great for the storage of the gas generated! Hell you can even farm them

    not to be confused with Drink Tanked
    (with alcoholic liquids sloshing about)

    when ya might end up in the Clink Tank
    (the result of Binge Thinking again?)

    The Arrrgh Complex • Since Jan 2010 • 158 posts Report Reply

  • Jolisa,

    Danielle, not sure which is funnier - the goose incident itself, or the fact that it's reported on WAK TV!

    Noting that Virginia Woolf was also a member, can I ask if a room of one's own and 500 a year is still a policy plank? Cos that would be nice.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 1472 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I'd hate to be in a think tank. My thoughts are best appreciated by the Air Force. They drop from nowhere, usually miss, often pick up collateral, are easily shot down.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    What ever happened to Fabian Fanboy?

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Reid,

    I think that 'think tank' relates more to a container, not an armoured vehicle.

    That's just what they wanted us to think.

    ... the term was first used in a secret report on the new motorised weapon presented to Winston Churchill, then First Lord of the Admiralty, by British Army Lt.-Col. Ernest Swinton. From this report, three possible terms emerged: cistern, motor-war car, and tank. Apparently tank was chosen due to its linguistic simplicity.

    We coulda been talking think cisterns. Some of them are more like cisterns really though aren't they.

    South Africa • Since Nov 2006 • 80 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    We coulda been talking think cisterns. Some of them are more like cisterns really though aren't they.

    I'd say most, but it's still good to have your own cisterns full of your own shit. A bit like intelligence agencies - creepy, scary, nasty things that they are, but if the other guys have them, then you really have no choice.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Unfortunatly the link for the NZ Fabian Society doesn't work for me

    Hmm. Goes fine here.

    How about Mike Smith giving us an outline of exactly what they stand for before we start discussing the subject

    I was rather hoping that would happen as a matter of course. I'll suggest it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22817 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Don Brash was probably referring to these Fabian ideals, as expressed by Shaw

    Well, David, if I was offering PR advice to neo-Fabians I'd suggest their brand is somewhat tainted by the enthusiasm of the likes of Shaw, the Webbs, Marie Stopes and Wells for eugenics. Would love a pointer a pointer to anywhere Brash has done the same.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Alien Lizard (anag),

    ya can't beat the cistern...

    The Arrrgh Complex • Since Jan 2010 • 158 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Well, David, if I was offering PR advice to neo-Fabians I'd suggest their brand is somewhat tainted by the enthusiasm of the likes of Shaw, the Webbs, Marie Stopes and Wells for eugenics. Would love a pointer a pointer to anywhere Brash has done the same.

    We had a strain of that ourselves. The 1925 Mental Defectives and Sexual Offenders: Report of The Committee of Inquiry Appointed by the Hon Sir Maui Pomare, KBE, CMG, Minister of Health is unbelievable. Ngata had his moments too.

    The whole "respectable" eugenics phenomenon is a useful instruction in the evil that well-meaning, good and reasonable people can speak.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22817 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    Oh ffs, not this again. I can quite confidently say you are full of shit about this Craig. Wells was not enthusiastic about eugenics (understood in the negative sense); he thought of it as a depressing notion that had to be faced up to.

    Further, he wasn't consistent on this either; he changed his mind and if I could be arsed looking it up I could give you chapter and verse.

    Finally: who were the actual implementers of the policy of Empire again Craig? Oh, right, yeah.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1452 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Further, he wasn't consistent on this either; he changed his mind and if I could be arsed looking it up I could give you chapter and verse.

    So, he never advocated eugenics or changed his mind about it? Keir, if you're going to call me a liar and/or an idiot please do be arsed to make your case before doing so.

    Shaw and the Webbs most certainly did -- and any who would like to pretend that eugenics was an affectation restricted to the far-right in England between the wars should try reading R.J. Overy's excellent The Morbid Age: Britain between the wars. Rather sad and frightening just how intellectually and politically respectable bigotry wrapped up in a thin caul of pseudo-science was. The more things change...

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    Craig: there were hardly any groups in NZ not espousing some aspect of eugenics in the early decades of last century. Plunket was founded on eugenic principles of breeding good little soldiers for the empire. There were eugenists who wanted to breed out and those who wanted to breed better. The scariest were those who linked moral depravity, intellectual impairment, and mental illness, like some of those behind that committee of inquiry that Russell linked to, and who set up a eugenics board to keep a register of such individuals (and the institutions to lock away undesirable groups, that took decades to close).

    The main groups who opposed eugenics as far as I could find in my research were mental health survivors or those with family members with impairments, such as Peter and Janet Fraser, and various other socialists and social justice activists.

    There are many politicians these days calling for limits on breeding for some groups, some closely aligned with the ACT party. That's eugenic.

    And if you really want to look at eugenics today what about things like pre-implantation genetic technology, or amniocentesis (can be seen as breeding out undesirable ie disabled people)? I'm sure people developing these technologies do not see themselves as eugenic, but being helpful to parents, just as Marie Stopes et al did decades ago.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3214 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    So, he never advocated eugenics or changed his mind about it? Keir, if you're going to call me a liar and/or an idiot please do be arsed to make your case before doing so.

    No, I am saying he was never enthusiastic about eugenics; I am also saying he was not consistent about his (always grudging) support for eugenics. Craig, it would be very nice were you to make a habit of reading the words actually written on the screen, and not reading the meaning you have already ascribed to them.

    Further, if you want to start bringing up nasty discriminatory policies of the early twentieth century, you are a Tory. It isn't a glass house you are living in so much as a crystal palace.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1452 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    What ever happened to Fabian Fanboy?

    Didn't he mutate into Carlton Crisp after eating too much snack food?

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    Didn't he mutate into Carlton Crisp after eating too much snack food?

    Bloody socialist. Always thought he had a chip on his shoulder.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And, right on cue: A Kiwiblog guest post musing on incentivised sterilisation for the morally unfit, received with some enthusiasm by Act's David Garrett.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22817 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    Oh wow, nobody comes out of this one well.

    It's a strange thread when even Chuck Bird winds up looking relatively reasonable.

    Regarding the Fabian Society: as much as I love the idea of totally unrestrained progressive debate, it'd be good to get some kind of initial statement of where the Fabians are at, as others have requested earlier upthread. It may likely be a failure of education on my part, but I had thought of the Fabians as a largely vanished historical movement and could use some bringing up to speed on the whole thing.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1609 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    And, right on cue: A Kiwiblog guest post musing on incentivised sterilisation for the morally unfit, received with some enthusiasm by Act's David Garrett.

    I was going to bring up Michael Lhaws, I swear I was. Oh well.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    And would sterilisation necessarily stop at "deviants" or "mental defectives?"

    Black Triangles, Red Triangles, Green Triangles, Pink Triangles, anybody? Diana Wichtel again has some sage advice, particularly being of Jewish descent.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5429 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Who makes these guest posts on Kiwiblog? Not even under a pseudonym.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • Alien Lizard (anag),

    Torchwood sems to be heading into the eugenics zone - and now we know why Tolley wants school performance details - be very afraid!
    it is fiction isn't it?

    The Arrrgh Complex • Since Jan 2010 • 158 posts Report Reply

  • chris,

    Watched Gattaca for the first time tonight and thought it dealt with eugenics in a very entertaining and inspiring way. Quite a good watch.

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ0MTA2NTY0.html

    Mawkland • Since Jan 2010 • 1302 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Am I looking forward to the inevitable Your Views on Garrett's sterilisation plan. And I'm sure Craig will be vindicated when it turns out to be lousy with Fabians and other leftist types applauding the move.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

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