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Speaker: SIBs: The reality of "return-based outcomes"

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  • Idiot Savant,

    Or at least not be funded without somebody, somewhere making some money out of it.

    Welcome to modern corporatist government: where the private sector lobbies for the creation of statutory monopolies where they can insert themselves and leech rent. The existence of which then provides them with the funds to lobby politicians to perpetuate their rent-seeking.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1716 posts Report Reply

  • Jack Harrison,

    Thank you for writing this. It is actually big news.

    The idea that society is a money making machine on every facet of its operations is stunning, cold and basically sick.

    The person who devised this idea suffers from some form of cold detachment from the reality that surrounds them. A mental illness in itself , a zeal of coldness and a thirst for making money in places that the very bankers of this stupid idea will never have to work in. How about whacking up the top tax rates to normal functioning rates and give the much needed money to the citizens who we are so desperately trying to reattach to our great society. Stop this bullshit of market knows best and start building the nation again. Stupid , fucking stupid ideas.

    wellington • Since Aug 2014 • 296 posts Report Reply

  • fraser munro,

    its telling that in all interviews to date i havent heard one govt MP mention the outcomes for the actual people involved - all comments from govt have been focused solely on the $

    When the issue of mental health is only discussed in financial risk to the govt you know somethings not right

    ranui • Since Nov 2014 • 14 posts Report Reply

  • Jack Harrison,

    However, in order to get those at the top to be interested in those at the bottom, it’s necessary to offer them some more of what they already have: Money

    So well written. Money baby.It's a drug.

    wellington • Since Aug 2014 • 296 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __,

    Thanks for writing this, John. It's all so horrifying.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3891 posts Report Reply

  • Jack Harrison,

    It's like they don't understand true capitalism.

    The profit incentive is risk driven. The illnesses that have plagued our society from the get go are not solvable by making them subject to the dice rolling of the investment market.

    wellington • Since Aug 2014 • 296 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    That’s not precisely what they’ve said,

    No it isnt, because they (the pricks who dreamt this up) hide behind carefully crafted press release's and trot out stock phrases when appearing in the media.
    And these said pricks have stolen this nasty quirk from those they deride, yes, new agers who were busy selling their brand of BS back in the 80's using exactly the same tactic. The downward spiral continues...

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1890 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    It's all about $ for sure: you can bet the 'outcomes' will involve 'saving the taxpayer money' not saving people's lives.
    And there's another assumption which unpacks as nasty - that we (collectively as a society) could provide much better services to the vulnerable, but we won't unless there's dollar in it.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2108 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald,

    Of course the market knows best.

    Look who are the successful. Look at our Leaders.

    Are they disabled? Are they mentally ill?

    No they are not.

    They are hale, healthy and rich.

    Because they played the market and won.

    So there.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Euan Mason,

    Thanks for this excellent review. It must be shared widely.

    Canterbury • Since Jul 2008 • 259 posts Report Reply

  • Jack Harrison, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    And there’s another assumption which unpacks as nasty – that we (collectively as a society) could provide much better services to the vulnerable, but we won’t unless there’s dollar in it.

    You nailed it.

    wellington • Since Aug 2014 • 296 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    ATOS was a nightmare. Early on the Disabled People Against Cuts (DPAC) Facebook page started reporting horrific stories. The programme was inappropriate in every possible way such as the tick box form which took no account of mental health or any other assessment such as the person's local GP. The review panels were soon completely overwhelmed. There was even a protest by the Paralympians at the London Paralympics. Why anyone would think such a plan would be effective is beyond belief. Several deaths were recorded.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3214 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    There was even a protest

    What will it take to get the NZ disability community to protest???

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Jack Harrison, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Physically protesting is actually quite dangerous and then you get ridiculed. I believe the best way is to "give a fuck".

    wellington • Since Aug 2014 • 296 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Jack Harrison,

    Physically protesting is actually quite dangerous and then you get ridiculed.

    So? Living like this is dangerous, and as for ridicule....

    Giving a fuck is not enough....

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Jack Harrison,

    I know, but protest is not easy and there are communities so removed from the gravity of the confusion of left-right newspaper politics that they wouldn’t know who any politician was ,they don’t register politics at that time of their lives. You need to protest .

    wellington • Since Aug 2014 • 296 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody,

    Financial institutions such as J.P. Morgan Chase and Morgan Stanley have created impact investing units within their corporate structure, while Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs have led on investing in social impact bonds.

    http://www.rockefellerfoundation.org/blog/innovations-in-finance-for-social-impact/

    And of course we all know how their last collective “innovation” in finance worked out, don’t we?

    We are their wet dream of a fertile experimental ground, prepared with grateful assistance from their personally trained minion, John Key. He came (or should I say, was sent) home for a reason.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 798 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Eric Crampton of the NZ Initiative has been vocal expressing his concern that SIBs here will fail because of excessive monitoring and bureacracy.

    I've been thinking about this, and the above made me realise. In a normal market, service users evaluate quality and change suppliers themselves. I don't like the results I'm getting for myself, and I go elsewhere.

    Here though, the purchaser and the consumer of services are not the same. And the consumers have no voice (prisoners) or have strong barriers to acting effectively (mental health consumers). So there must be strong independent controls in place, audit regimes and inspection and so on. We know from experience that self-inspection is not reliable and leads to gruesome mis-reporting. The only other party that can monitor effectively is the state.

    So the idea of a SIB-funded service being lightly monitored as a requirement for it to succeed is a bit of a laugh really.

    The other thing that bugs me about this is that SIB funding is presented as a way for government to conduct experiments or pilots away from the dead hand of bureaucracy. But the thing about the kinds of service in question is that they are very high stakes. Get them wrong, and people die. Very different from the average business taking risks where the worst outcome is people lose money. The conservatism and risk aversion is there for a very good reason. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    Eric Crampton of the NZ Initiative has been vocal expressing his concern that SIBs here will fail because of excessive monitoring and bureacracy.

    Diddums....

    He should not be too concerned.

    The SIB is a ramped up version of what the disabled have had to endure for the past decade or so.

    Disability support services contracted out to charities or businesses. Mostly businesses now, as the smaller units have been swallowed up by what I call the 'superproviders'. These providers were supposed to be monitored and audited and generally held accountable...but hey...disabled people you know...they drown, they get burned in fires, they get beaten up, they get left in their own excrement because the boss forgot to send out the carer...or the carer just didn't turn up. par for the course, so of course they are seldom held to account. And as for losing their contracts....what does it take????

    With the 'investor' input...ie, hard arsed business people who care not a shit for clients but are all for the bottom line will provide 'administrative support', so at least the books look good...and I'll bet they will have a few tips for wringing the last drop out of the wage dollar.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Jack Harrison,

    We are their wet dream of a fertile experimental ground, prepared with grateful assistance from their personally trained minion, John Key

    We were a wet dream under the "no risk" buy off of the eighties and we are moisting up now. We like being fucked it seems.

    wellington • Since Aug 2014 • 296 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    Eric Crampton of the NZ Initiative has been vocal expressing his concern that SIBs here will fail because of excessive monitoring and bureacracy.

    Eric Crampton is a sneering apologist for third world child sweatshops. And if you disagree with him, you're smug, so there. Seriously, what's wrong with us that we import ghastly idealogues like Crampton and Paula Rebstock?

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Jack Harrison, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Paula Rebstock lacks basic keeweeness history depth . We are what we are Paula.

    wellington • Since Aug 2014 • 296 posts Report Reply

  • Jack Harrison,

    As Mark Twain said, "it's time to collect the trickledown."

    wellington • Since Aug 2014 • 296 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to fraser munro,

    its telling that in all interviews to date i havent heard one govt MP mention the outcomes for the actual people involved – all comments from govt have been focused solely on the $

    It's immensely othering: "We'll stop these fringe-dwellers costing us all so much money."

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22817 posts Report Reply

  • Alastair Jamieson, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    Here though, the purchaser and the consumer of services are not the same.

    So SIB's would be like the Wilson Parking version of mental health services.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 99 posts Report Reply

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