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Speaker: SIBs: The reality of "return-based outcomes"

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  • linger, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    Small-(government-)minded?

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1923 posts Report Reply

  • Jack Harrison,

    Obvious answer: A bloody depressed former Labour voter.

    Labour historically suck at the polls.

    We are a very conservative bunch politically,currently preyed on by a recessive economy which never delivers quite enough to feel settled yet still delivers great profits.

    wellington • Since Aug 2014 • 296 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    NZ’s first social bond experiment involves mental health provider Wise Group as some of you predicted from the outset, with the ANZ Bank as ‘intermediary’ for private investors.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19705 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Sacha,

    NZ's first social bond experiment

    Sounds like a prime example of fracketeeering.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4592 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle MacDonald, in reply to Sacha,

    Yup, and with all information locked down to Members written questions and OIA requests due to "commercial sensitivity". ANZ and Westpac will act as brokers, so there will be another layer of admin and complication/ cost. And we'll be tied in regardless of election results until at least 2017...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 82 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Kyle MacDonald,

    What's your professional assessment of Wise Group's results before this?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19705 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle MacDonald, in reply to Sacha,

    Limited knowledge to be honest, Workwise and Pathways do good stuff, and are a natural fit with the policy. I'm reluctant to level too much negative at them: they're just looking for money to do the work they already do, this Govt has made it clear they intend to stave NGO's of funds...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 82 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Kyle MacDonald,

    Yes, I don't blame any organisation for jumping at it in that context. Te Pou seem to do some good work too.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19705 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Sacha,

    as some of you predicted from the outset

    Please....allow me just one weeny wee I TOLD YOU SO!

    This outfit is based in Hammytown....has a huge building, all the glitz. Their advertising makes my skin crawl, quite frankly....puts me in mind of some US religious organisation.

    All the incentive I need to stay in the realm of the relatively sane...

    SEE...outcome already!

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    As noted above, some of their subsidiaries have done good work.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19705 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    Min. of Health, Dep. Dir.-Gen., OIA rqst, social bonds, transfered fr. MSD, reply, 25.08.15.pdf

    Return based outcomes, and the discussion about social bonds, perhaps some may be interested in this recent OIA response from the MoH (transferred to them by MSD). It has been obtained from a trusted source. We thought they may have gone ahead further.


    So they are still in the procurement and preparation phase it seems:
    http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-wellness/social-bonds-new-zealand-pilot/social-bonds-progress-date

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald,

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Fostering First in Germany has closed down, it says, when clicking the link for it on ‘keyassets’ website (under ‘Global foster care through Core Assets’):
    http://www.ffd.de/

    I wonder what reason was behind that. Visitors to that site in Germany are told to go to the state foster care agency.

    As for some above commenting positively on ‘Workwise’ and ‘the Wise Group’, I have witnessed first hand, how a mental health sufferer I know did not get much support from one of their staff. The person was very disappointed, and did not achieve what she hoped for. I would not generalise, but what I have read and heard, it means the Wise Group is very keen on more contracts with government, and keen to grow.

    They lean heavily on the known “fit for work” experts that rely on UK research and “evidence”, and at least some of that research is rather “dodgy” as I have found, actually reading it.

    Constructive help should be encouraged, but when it ends up in a fee structured referral system, such as what MSD seem to be using in their “trials”, then there will always be a delicate actuarial balancing act necessary, to earn enough to cover costs, and thus make the services economically feasible. So “output” is required at certain levels, and it does not matter whether we have Serco like “service providers”, or trusts or NGO charities doing the job, they will all have to get persons put through in high enough numbers, to present expected results. This will inevitably lead to cutting corners, to in some cases put the client’s interests second, when cost pressures build up, that may be risking the whole operation.

    Even ‘Workwise’ , ‘Pathways’ and ‘Te Pou’, all part of the “Wise Family”, need to at least break even. So where are greater “efficiencies” achieved? As all face the same competitive environment, it is likely to be in employing staff who are paid less than any state services, plus perhaps more “efficient”, streamlined systems they use.
    http://www.wisegroup.co.nz/

    As for the “evidence” that MSD love to go on about, I suggest to interested persons to actually read the various reports that they refer to, which do not deliver all the evidence that is so often talked about. Here is an interesting analysis, also using OIA info:
    https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2015/08/09/msd-and-dr-david-bratt-present-misleading-evidence-claiming-worklessness-causes-poor-health/

    But that does not only look at the challenges disabled face, it is this ideological discussion about “worklessness”, that they love going on about, less vocally now, though, it seems. I wonder why?

    http://www.wisegroup.co.nz/what-we-do#workwise

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    It was yesterday in Parliament, when we got a first glimpse of what can be expected to be delivered as a kind of mid term "evaluation report" on new, outsourced, contracted social security programs, such as the so-called 'Mental Health Employment Services' and also the 'Sole Parent Employment Service'. I bet it will be made public just before Christmas, when most will be firmly focused on planning their summer holidays, and on preparing the Christmas celebrations. Anyway, readers may find this of interest:

    http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/39670

    That was Carmel Sepuloni, Labour's spokesperson on social security, asking the Associate Minister for Social Development some hard questions!

    As had already been suspected long ago, the "trials" for Mental Health Employment Services", and apparently even for "Sole Parent Employment Services", appear to have been an abysmal failure, according to Carmel Sepuloni, who got an OIA response on 04 September, which she used to ask her questions in Parliament yesterday.

    All this was already becoming somewhat evident, when an earlier OIA request was responded to by MSD earlier this year. See details here:
    https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2015/04/10/mental-health-and-sole-parent-employment-services-msd-withholds-o-i-a-information-that-may-prove-their-trials-a-failure/

    Here is a downloaded PDF version, easier to read, with that same post:
    https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/mhes-spes-msd-withholds-o-i-a-info-that-may-prove-trials-a-failure-post-nzsjb-final-14-04-2015.pdf

    So given other recent OIA responses, and also the fact, that NO real, convincing EVIDENCE was presented by MSD on supposed "medical scientific research" that is claimed to prove the "health benefits" of paid work in open employment, and also the harm to health caused by "worklessness", we can assume that the whole welfare reform agenda is now falling to pieces:
    https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2015/08/09/msd-and-dr-david-bratt-present-misleading-evidence-claiming-worklessness-causes-poor-health/

    https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/msd-dr-bratt-present-misleading-evidence-on-worklessness-and-health-post-09-08-15.pdf

    The MSM does not seem to take note of all these developments, maybe, it is, because it affects mostly only those non-voting members of the underclass, who are not worth reporting on, that is, unless they are (in some cases) charged and prosecuted for hideous crimes and put before our courts.

    Are "beneficiaries" still the most discriminated group of people in NZ, or have they now been replaced by Muslims, I wonder?

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald,

    Social Bonds get the Insight treatment on Natrad this morning.

    Audio here.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald,

    Oh, I love this...

    http://www.health.govt.nz/sites/default/files/images/our-work/social-bonds/concept-01_wise_grp-29_jun_2015.jpg

    If the image doesn't show...can someone please fix it...a picture worth a thousand words and all that...

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Thanks for posting this link to the Insight program on RNZ, which I also listened to. It worries me a bit, how RNZ as public state broadcaster always try to put it right for both sides of interest holding parties, which at times does seem to give the government too much credit for “trying something new”.

    I know of no social impact bond scheme that has been tried with the intention of getting those with mental health issues into employment. They used trials or schemes for other purposes in the UK, the Netherlands and so, I hear, but not with such a highly vulnerable group of people.

    This is what really scares me.

    As most providers that offer social services of whatever kind tend to be totally or largely dependent on government funding, I notice again, how they do in significant numbers seem to be prepared to give “social bonds” a go, to try them out.

    What difference should such trials or longer term schemes make though, when we have no changes in the rest of the socio economic environment? When employers, like so many other people, still are very biased against disabled, especially with mental health issues, and reluctant to employ or work with them, which necessitates understanding them and allowing work environments where they can function, then we will not get anywhere, no matter what approaches the government wants to take.

    We have many jobs, particularly for those that are low skilled, where people are now expected to work regular ten or twelve hour shifts, under pressure to perform and deliver certain output results, we have a significant degree of part time, casual and precarious work, and employers only hire people when they need things done, and earn a good profit, this does not provide the environment, that is in my view, for many with mental health conditions to function well and to last in a job.

    And when paid work in the open employment market is supposed to be solution, the pressure will be there, as benefits will not be paid for those working over 15 or more hours, apart from perhaps the accommodation and disability allowances.

    This puts people that are healthy under pressure, how is this going to work for mental health suffering people? Some may manage, and some only have temporary mental health issues, others though have repeated spells or periods of such, or permanent conditions, with resulting disabilities.

    I am much concerned that this has now been brought further after much more work behind the scenes, the program The Nation on TV3 this weekend also had a “sales man” of some kind sell us the pros of this “social impact bonds” idea, with figures that I found unconvincing. He used very high potential social cost figures to show how much could be saved using such bonds, but most people in risk groups may not end up in prison or occur that high costs.

    In my view we may perhaps rather look at improving existing services, or try other ways to address the issues we have, this social impact stuff is just more ideologically driven policy coming from the policy labs of certain right leaning think tanks overseas, from which Bill English and others like to pick their “recipes”.

    Those that may "invest" in "social bonds" will WANT a RETURN, that is a financial gain, and that very motive has led to what we have in our society now, much instability, little job security, a higher level of precarious work, and a growing wealth and income gap, leaving many to compete and struggle especially at the lower socio economic end of society. So if this will be allowed, those that sign up as providers, they will feel pressure to perform, to get those placements and to get people into jobs and make them stay there, no matter what, as all else will incur costs minimising their potential gains.

    Prepare for much cutting of corners, and we know who will pay the price for that.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Oh yes, the Wise Group and Workwise again, I remember, Helen Lockett, their Senior Policy Advisor, was invited to and was a member of the so-called Health and Disability Panel that Paula Bennett did years ago select and appoint to "advise" government on welfare reforms affecting those with health and disability.

    There were a few on that panel with vested interests, and surprise, surprise, Workwise is already one of those service providers that got contracts to provide Sole Parent Employment Services and Mental Health Employment Services.

    http://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2013/09/07/the-health-and-disability-panel-and-its-hand-picked-members/

    Another senior member of that panel was Dr David Beaumont, formerly working for ATOS in the UK, then at times assessor or consultant for ACC, also running his Pathways to Work business in Otago. Now, pure coincidence again, he is president of the AFOEM, running the professional medical professional organisation and their faculty. Also pure co-incidence, I am sure, he was the one who invited Prof. Mansel Aylward (check his background re his role in the UK welfare reforms, also having worked as Director to the once so called Unum Provident Centre for Psychosocial and Disability Research, since then renamed twice) to "advise" them at the AFOEM on the "health benefits of work". He later turned up here, to do his tours around New Zealand, promoting the same to GPs and others, and he even worked with MSD's Principal Health Advisor on strategies and delivered "presentations", apparently none of which has been covered in any reports by MSD, as recent OIA info from them kind of stated.

    How bizarre, how bizarre, senior advisors to Bennett, the Health and Disability Panel and Dr David Bratt, all not recorded by any reports by MSD, strange that:
    https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2015/11/27/msds-selective-and-poor-responses-to-new-oia-requests-on-benefits-advisors-reports-mental-health-and-sole-parent-employment-services/

    https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/msds-selective-poor-responses-to-new-oia-requests-post-nzsjb-27-11-15.pdf

    https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2015/08/09/msd-and-dr-david-bratt-present-misleading-evidence-claiming-worklessness-causes-poor-health/

    And I notice when trying Google now, the internet has been "cleansed" and "purged" from controversial info that was once found on these "experts", I wonder why, is it because Dr Bratt got some lectures on "change management" form Prof. Aylward during his one to two month "study visit" in the UK and Europe in May to April 2014?

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    Oh, Dr Bratt forgot to delete this one from the web, which still shows up:
    http://www.gpcme.co.nz/pdf/BO%2012%20830am%20David%20Bratt%20Benefit%20were%20a%20Drug%20V2.pdf

    Some info our activist friends in the UK still make available, which the "experts" have not managed to shut down yet:
    http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/08/28/unums-unaccepatable-influence-in-the-formulation-of-uk-dwp-atos-disability-assessment-regime-letter-to-president-of-the-faculty-of-occupational-medicine-royal-college-of-physicians/

    Why has New Zealand's opposition not made more of all this scandalous stuff that we got pushed down our throats over recent years? Or are they too scared to upset vested interest holding stakeholder parties?

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Marc C,

    And I notice when trying Google now, the internet has been “cleansed” and “purged” from controversial info

    Are we perhaps a tad paranoid Marc C? Meself was searching for a document on the Google the other night...gone it is into cyber oblivion...

    I also checked out the Nation segment on the possible SIB potential for at risk yoof...and also had doubts about the veracity of the numbers.

    I also took the time this morning (instead of getting properly dressed) to read John's original post here, as well as the comments so far.

    And when paid work in the open employment market is supposed to be solution, the pressure will be there, as benefits will not be paid for those working over 15 or more hours, apart from perhaps the accommodation and disability allowances.

    This puts people that are healthy under pressure, how is this going to work for mental health suffering people? Some may manage, and some only have temporary mental health issues, others though have repeated spells or periods of such, or permanent conditions, with resulting disabilities.

    Wise's wee flowchart implies that jobs of choice are there for the willing....bullshit.

    What will be there is yet another pool of exploitable workers...but these workers are at serious risk of harm when their 'job of choice' goes tits up.

    Oh, the irony if the wealthy SIB investors, who just may have well contributed to the general level of mental malaise in our communities by their exploitative practices, ultimately profit.

    But...let it not be said that some merely rant negatively about such innovative initiatives while not offering any constructive suggestions themselves.

    There are potential employment opportunities in the entertainment industry, MSM and the blogoshere...

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Jobs of choice, yeah right, get out the next bottle of Tui (I do not really call it beer by the way, it is too yukky).

    Is there any job going as Prime Minister, as of late?

    Oh, I may just settle for a job as CEO of MSD, perhaps on trial basis, I have lots of experience and ideas, but how are my chances there, Miss Tolley?

    If that is no option, maybe Principal Disability Advisor, or at least some kind of advisor?

    Silence!

    Oh, there are packers and pickers wanted to work for Progressive Enterprises, night shift, 12 hours on for four days, two days off, ahem, well, if there is nothing else, I may just have to settle for it, as an assessment has now found me "fit for work", I hear.

    Thank you all, Prof. Aylward, Dr Bratt, Dr Beaumont, Miss Bennett, Miss Tolley and Mr English, we get it.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Oh indeed, Rosemary, I am just sensing extreme paranoia, I am fearing a relapse into a serious anxiety disorder now, I will swiftly see my GP, and ask to be referred straight to Workwise, to get the treatment I need.

    "Work will set you free", was a popular slogan in the 1930s and 1940s in parts of Europe, I heard, perhaps there is some truth to it. Keep busy, keep them occupied, keep them fend for themselves, and they will get no time to get silly ideas, ask unwanted questions and cause too much trouble.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Marc C,

    Oh, there are packers and pickers wanted to work for Progressive Enterprises, night shift, 12 hours on for four days, two days off, ahem, well, if there is nothing else, I may just have to settle for it, as an assessment has now found me “fit for work”, I hear.

    You might want to pack a lunch....http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/4950014/Count-down-for-a-job

    or...

    Take you Workwise Clinical Employment Facilitator along to help you jump the queue!

    Ah!

    Brave new world.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    It's always the case that when a new supermarket opens, there are at least 10 applicants lining up for each advertised position. It's like the UK Tories' "Labour Isn't Working" posters from 1979, but with the political colours inverted.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5429 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Aahh the myth that good quality, well paying, well supported jobs are out there for everybody - just waiting for the lazy, ill or disabled person to start looking.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3214 posts Report Reply

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