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Speaker: Economics of the Waterview Tunnel

234 Responses

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  • Gareth Ward,

    That $300-$700m number is quite amazing - they have magically saved (potentially) MORE from NZTA's lowest-acceptable option than the original difference in NZTA's options.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Locals (by and large) accept the motorway is going to be built and that there are regional benefits, and had worked through a proper democratic consultation process to ensure that the social and environmental costs were minimised where possible. Now that process looks like it will need to start all over again.

    It seems you can rest assured that it won't need to start all over again, the government will be amending the RMA to ensure that much less consultation will be needed now.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Robeson,

    National in Auckland: Bulldozing through half-written legislation, bulldozing your democractic rights and now bulldozing your house.

    Is any of the mainstream media gutting these guys like they deserve or are they all accepting that if they say it is it must be true?

    Since Feb 2008 • 87 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    The people of Te Aro neither work, nor have families.

    The somewhat dull paperwork I'm doing right now must be for fun then. Odd, i thought it was work. Think I'll go and spend the afternoon in Midnight's instead then..

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    I think we really need a good journalist to track down which business(es) benefits from the government choosing the above ground option and then to track down which politicians are close personal friends who just happen to have frequent expensive dinners with the owners of said business(es).

    TLDR This stinks of corruption and I don't have the investigative skills to find it - is there a journalist in the house?

    This is sort of what was in the back of my head when I asked my question, which was answered as follows:

    the government's anti-debt stance is about keeping interest rates for business low - effectively subsidising their private profits by sacrificing the rest of us.

    I would tend to agree that an in-depth article in, say, Metro, would be worth a read, exploring all these issues.

    I would hasten to add that I am not suggesting there is corruption. I just have very little (no) faith in our glorious Mainstream Media having a snowball's of exposing it if it was there.

    I found that answer pretty much satisfactory. "Where's the money?' 'Ah, here it is'.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    The somewhat dull paperwork I'm doing right now must be for fun then. Odd, i thought it was work. Think I'll go and spend the afternoon in Midnight's instead then..

    The point was that Te Aro-ans are hardly seen by the politicians as a battle-ground for votes, and easily pigeonholed. Mt Albert on the other hand...

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    Decision made but no info in there: http://www.nzta.govt.nz/newsroom/info/264/index.html

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Joshua Arbury,

    It could certainly be worse..... a diagram would be nice.

    Auckland • Since May 2009 • 237 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    The Speaker has again rejected a request for an urgent appeal on the tunnel. Hughes has pointed out that the Government has avoided scrutiny on the decision, which was announced immediately after Question Time had ended, by the timing of its announcement. It precludes an urgent debate and the House will go into urgency, avoiding another Question Time. It's a remarkably arrogant move. Remarkable.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Joshua Arbury,

    60% underground. Through Alan Wood Reserve. Underneath Great North Road???? Underneath New North Road.

    Auckland • Since May 2009 • 237 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    Think I'll go and spend the afternoon in Midnight's instead then..

    That would be an afternoon well spent.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1716 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    So given the cost it has to be cut and cover yeah? So perhaps they start the tunnel at New North Rd and cut up Albie Turner Field to then re-cover?

    Amazing though - how exactly did they take all this cost out yet still keep cut-and-cover tunnel for most of it???

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    It's a remarkably arrogant move. Remarkable.

    But very typical of how National operates.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1716 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    Spot the fix:

    Mr Roche said the new route would cost approximately $1.4 billion and could be completed in around four years. This cost includes associated SH16 works and is in 2015 dollars.

    So, were the other optiosn in 2015 $, or in 2009?

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1716 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    Map in here (p6)

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1716 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    Sounds like they're stealing the rail corridor. So, no rail for Auckland, because national will build a dirty great road in the way.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1716 posts Report Reply

  • Joshua Arbury,

    Yes, the "follows existing rail designation is a worry".

    Auckland • Since May 2009 • 237 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    So, no rail for Auckland, because national will build a dirty great road in the way.

    What major cities use trains anyway? Auckland has no need of such technology!

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    What major cities use trains anyway?

    Which brings me back to Sydney, or Melbourne for that matter, and the observation that despite all the BS about slowing net PLT departures west, the government's not prepared to do the really tough stuff necessary.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    Which brings me back to Sydney, or Melbourne for that matter

    I've used public transport in both, and I've used public transport in Auckland. Australia is better.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1716 posts Report Reply

  • Joshua Arbury,

    Let’s say that I run a company which sells two different products: red socks and blue socks, for example. 84% of what I sell are red socks and 16% of what I sell are blue socks. Therefore, 84% of my current machinery is dedicated to making red socks and 16% dedicated to making blue socks.

    Now, over the past few years my sales of red socks have been pretty constant, in fact they haven’t increased since 2004. Over that same time period my sales of blue socks have increased significantly – by around 20-30% even. Furthermore, I know that 5-10 years into the future my main ingredient for making red socks is going to increase dramatically in price, and my prices will need to go up significantly to reflect this. Therefore my likely future sales of red socks are going to stay constant or perhaps even decline. As people will still need to buy socks, blue socks will become comparatively cheaper and more popular.

    Now, a few questions:

    Over the next 5-10 years is it more likely that my sales of blue socks will increase, or my sales of red socks?

    Given that my sales of red socks haven’t increased since 2004 and because I’m mindful of future price increases in a very important ingredient, should I build another machine that makes red socks?

    Given the recent increase in my sales of blue socks, should I add capacity to the production of them instead?

    Would it be wise, in a business sense, for me to focus the vast majority of the money I have to spend on capacity increases on red socks?

    In case anyone got lost in the metaphor, private vehicles are red socks, public transport is blue socks. Steven Joyce is proposing to spend the vast majority of transport funds for new infrastructure on roads, even though the number of vehicles using the roads is not increasing. Meanwhile, our “growth sector” of blue socks/public transport is getting ignored and deprived of necessary funds.

    Geez I thought this guy was a successful businessman. He sounds like numbskull to me.

    Auckland • Since May 2009 • 237 posts Report Reply

  • Joshua Arbury,

    This guy = Steven Joyce

    Auckland • Since May 2009 • 237 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    Australia is better.

    Sorry, that was my point. Australian capital cities have far better public transport. Sydney's is far from faultless, but it immeasurably superior to Auckland's. The train network is particularly good if you live in the "inner-west" of Sydney where stations are perhaps only 1 - 2 kms apart and trains run at least every 15 minutes through generous peak-hours.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    Classy post, Mr Arbury.

    Looking at the map there's a section of "future rail" marked in going south from Avondale, with the motorway right beside it to the west.

    Is the rail corridor wide enough to accommodate both? If not, which one is going to have to have land acquired for it? The motorway, to preserve the rail corridor? Or the rail corridor, to be built to the side sometime in the far future after the motorway has pinched all the designated land?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1609 posts Report Reply

  • James Green,

    The diagram in the NZTA presentation appears to still show the possibility of a rail corridor aligned with the diversion. I'm still intrigued by the apparent money saving.

    Also, this might be a n00b question, but to what extent are tunnel borers project specific? I note that the Waterview tunnel was going to have a bespoke machine, and I'm not sure how fast they might wear out or whatever, but it seems that for both road and rail options in the future, having tunnelling machinery and putting it to use round the place would seem like a logical thing to do?

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 703 posts Report Reply

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