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Speaker: Copyright Must Change

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  • robbery,

    Nope, never in 104 pages been quibbled about Rob

    you haven't, you freely acknowledge it, by opening your eyes and looking around you. I think it was mark as questioner of all statistics not personally gathered by himself, as also noed by giovanni.

    It's a bunch of opinions.

    quite possibly, which is the conundrum isn't it? where the guardian who are a good enough paper to quote when their 'fact's support ones view point, but are questionable when their 'facts' don't.

    yes people are finding different way to create income around music but that doesn't erase the income their not getting through 'illegal' downloads as lessig so rudely put it.

    your spiral,

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    That's what's wrong with this country. There are prizes and trophies for sport, science, the arts, but the truly great quibblers languish unrecognised,

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I think it was mark as questioner of all statistics not personally gathered by himself, as also noed by giovanni.

    Yes, I know Mark questioned but I was meaning by myself. I don't think there is any question people download songs...I do from time to time.

    But I don't think any act has ever lost a sale or a penny because I've done so and that covers most people downloading. I'm still quite a spender on music but rarely buy albums at all anymore, and that, in your rather confused spiral, if you will, of what is and is not a fact, is the one pertinent thing you missed in that Guardian piece.

    That being Mike Smith from Columbia saying:

    will lead the public back towards the pleasure of owning an original CD album

    Which is the problem faced by big labels and the overwhelming reason their turnover has dropped, and why they may not survive as content providers.....few buy albums anymore, they buy tracks. We know that is a 'fact' from the released data. We don't know that people mostly think music is free from data. It's a series of opinions, oft voiced, but rather offset by the fact, much less voiced, that people are still paying for music in some quantities, and increasingly so....and film for that matter.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    But I don't think any act has ever lost a sale or a penny because I've done so and that covers most people downloading.

    That's pretty unsubstantiated, though, wouldn't you say? A more honest answer would be that we don't know. It's impossible to disambiguate the evidence that there is, and if Lessig is right that 70% of kids download music illegally, then I don't see how you can extrapolate your own experience and say that it applies to such a large group of people.

    But you're also right when you say that the sky hasn't fallen over the artists or the industry, and that's crucial. So long as that keeps being the case, then really it's hard to argue that there is even a problem.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Okay, so I'm the only person I know who thinks Deastro is the future. I've bought every scrap of his work that has turned up on eMusic.

    Now his new album, Moondagger , the first with a full band, is out. It's on eMusic, but not available to people in New Zealand.

    It's not on iTunes NZ either.

    So I find the label, Ghostly, then find their online store. I create an account, plod through the steps to buy the download -- and then the site does a really dumb thing. Rather than giving me a download link after I've paid for the album, it sends an email with the download link in it.

    Surprise, surprise: the email hasn't arrived. They actually seem to be aware that their fulfillment emails are getting spam-filtered, but they seem to insist on doing it that way.

    I've emailed their service address, but I'm betting that by the time they get back to me it'll be too late. Because the download links generated by sales expire after 24 hours.

    Is this some kind of Stupid Contest?

    I've now got several album tracks off Hype Machine and am looking for a torrent. At least those things work .

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    then I don't see how you can extrapolate your own experience and say that it applies to such a large group of people.

    Ok I accept that but the two bits of data we do have are that unit sales are rising..quite a bit in some territories, and that people are downloading lots and lots of music.

    So quite clearly either unit sales would be increasing dramatically more than they are now if online piracy did not exist and was not allegedly causing these massive losses (and that things like video games which are booming and targeting the same dollar, were not having an effect) and the record companies would be in the middle of some commercial golden age, or a false equivalence is being drawn to explain the loss in turnover of record companies (but not, lets be clear, publishers or songwriters who are also doing pretty well right now...we know that from released data too) rather than looking at the major reason, which is a change in buying habits.

    The hard information we have to hand would, right now, suggest the latter.

    The quote from Mike Smith indicates, and my understanding from my many impromptu talks with label folks is that mostly they accept that but are unable to publicly admit it since they're fighting a survival war out there as they see it, and every dollar counts.

    Piracy is a problem, I agree ,but from a multi billion dollar corporation's pov the fact that their customers only want to buy 1/12 of their product is a much, much bigger one.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I've now got several album tracks off Hype Machine and am looking for a torrent

    but shit, you realise what this is gonna mean...a massive downturn in gig attendence in Chch....

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Yes, I know Mark questioned but I was meaning by myself.

    is that what you mean by

    Nobody has ever denied

    meaning nobody of any significance, in which case I accept your statement.

    But I don't think any act has ever lost a sale or a penny because I've done so and that covers most people downloading.

    But you're not nobody simon, you're a very specific type of obsessive music collector, quite rare actually. in assuming everyone is like you you've made a huge mistake. Sadly, very few people are like you as far as spending on music goes.

    in your rather confused spiral,

    minor quibble for joe here, your spiral, you started it, you own it.

    I'm still quite a spender on music but rarely buy albums at all anymore, and that, is the one pertinent thing you missed in that Guardian piece.

    far be it from me to lecture you on business as you are a much wealther man from music than I'll ever hope to be but you're under playing the essences of what is going on here.

    lets take our dairy example.

    dairy sells cans of coke.
    people illegally download coke into their pockets
    dairy owner makes pretty display of cans of coke on a tshirt and builds in a margin to cover the theft of the can so the tshirt is now much more expensive than it should be and also chains the shirts to make em un-stealable.
    thieving shifty youth see cans of coke as an iconic form and wants tshirt cos it looks cool, (slips and extra can in their pocket for the trip home) buys shirt.

    dairy owner makes exactly the same profit from before coke days as in post tshirt days but........

    in a no coke can downloading world he would have been selling cans of coke and tshirts with cans of coke printed on them, his business would have expanded with his extra enterprise. instead he has had to accept the theft of coke cans as a loss leader and sell tshirts instead, he's in the same position he was in but with extra effort and although he has expanded his business he has seen no expansion in profit.

    He started at point x
    He added product which should have taken him to point y
    Instead he's still at point x

    his loss is the amount of profit he should see for his additional products.
    Its nice that he's not out of business dead on the street but thats like saying I should feel grateful that when you robbed me you didn't break both my legs.
    I know its better than being both robbed and being a cripple, but still, you're a little to nice to the crims in your picture, be it that we all are crims.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Is this some kind of Stupid Contest?

    patience dear customer, some of these people are trying their best in very difficult new technology.
    I personally tried to make a one click on line download story for my shitty home recordings, talked to heaps of 'knowledgeable' people who looked into it and deemed it too hard and had to consider a professional pay some one to do it option which cost so much I couldn't justify it.
    I'm hoping it does become easy and viable cos its something I'd really like to offer and have control over but its not there yet, and I really have put a lot of effort into trying to make it happen.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    that unit sales are rising

    define unit,
    units were 10-12 songs ie an album
    are units now single songs? just asking cos its something I'm not clear on.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    .a massive downturn in gig attendence in Chch....

    and your logic is?
    there's a massive amount of mullet wearing shifty fuckers down here simon. crims are your audience.
    make a breaking and entering kit (crow bar, night vision goggles and some CSI gloves) part of the cd package and you'll be in the charts in no time.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Piracy is a problem, I agree

    so what are we arguing about again?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Pollock,

    Now his new album, Moondagger, the first with a full band, is out. It's on eMusic, but not available to people in New Zealand.

    Hmmm, I'm downloading it right now. Do they go by IP address or credit card details?

    Raumati South • Since Nov 2006 • 489 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Piracy is a problem, I agree ,but from a multi billion dollar corporation's pov the fact that their customers only want to buy 1/12 of their product is a much, much bigger one.

    I think most of us will agree with that, as well as with the rest of your comment. Perhaps, so long as we're talking about multi billion dollar corporations, one might pause to consider whether Apple or Telstra or Amazon are any more entitled to that money - in relation to the amount of music promotion that they engage in - than, say, EMI. In other words: if when the dust is settled it turns out that there's more percentage of the money in the pocket of artists and that they have more creative control, fine, but if it's just going to be a straight transfer of the fleecing right to another set of corporations in a different industry, then maybe we could reserve our judgment on whether to call it progress.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Pollock,

    Raumati South • Since Nov 2006 • 489 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    but from a multi billion dollar corporation's pov

    I guess that's part of the problem, I'm not interested in the picture from their point of view, its completely irrelevant to me what they feel, I look at it from the huge growing independent point of view. you gave us the figures some time back re profit to indies, I'm unsure on a products released basis how much indies release compared to the major 4 but I'd hazzard a guess of 10000 albums a huge percentage are indie based, granted not hugely profitable but its worth noting.
    tainting your view on what 4 big corporates do is a mistake. its part ofthe picture for sure but it is not "Music" capital m in its entirety.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    are units now single songs? just asking cos its something I'm not clear on.

    Units are and have always been sales as a single transaction whether it's one track or 12. The sale of a 45 is a unit sale with two tracks as the sale of an album.

    In the digital age the sales of a album unit are falling, whereas the sales of a single track, be it a ringtone, digital download or video are rising.

    I think I'm a perfect example. Yesterday I bought a track I love by a band who've been around for a wee while. On physical it's only on CD album, on iTunes I bought the track by itself. The record company and the other interested parties have lost income of some $25 since I only paid $1.59 for the track I like. They will never recover that $25.

    The problem is, the record labels, big and small, but especially the big ones, have learned to reply on me spending that $25 but I no longer do and thus the economics that define their very existence are threatened by the fact I don't.

    In the music industry, that is the massive change...that and the fact that when music was booming there was little else for kids to spend their dosh on.

    Now, regardless of evidence or not, I do accept that piracy is an issue and there is some lost revenue, but it pales against the change in buying habits and how that youth dollar is now spent.

    tainting your view on what 4 big corporates do is a mistake.

    Maybe, but it's also a fact that independent music is thriving worldwide, in a way we could never have dreamed off in the pre-digital age.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    as is the sale of an album

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    but if it's just going to be a straight transfer of the fleecing right to another set of corporations in a different industry, then maybe we could reserve our judgment on whether to call it progress.

    No argument there, Gio and I think it's something we have to be thoroughly wary of. I've never bought into the Apple as sainted deliverer of all things meme.

    I think iTunes is a wee bit of a dog when it comes to delivery but the dust is settling in strange ways and I don't think we've come close to seeing what patterns it will leave yet.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    __we could never have dreamed of in the pre-digital age.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    The problem is, the record labels, big and small, but especially the big ones, have learned to reply on me spending that $25 but I no longer do and thus the economics that define their very existence are threatened by the fact I don't.

    Acknowledged and agreed.
    what often isn't understood is that that one track did not cost $1.59 to make. It probably cost a hell of a lot more and that cost was evened out over some less expensive tracks grouped together in an economical package called an album. Some abuse the system and offer some really crap filler, some aren't up to the challenge of producing a whole album of good stuff and some completely deliver on ever single track, that doesn't negate that the cost of the project which spawned that one song you like is not $1.59, The album model helped make that fact easier to swallow. Even the ep was a good way to scrape a little more together.
    luckily most of the bands I follow deliver again and again.

    What are the options for those producing one hit wonders?
    raise the price of that one song to reflect the actual total cost of producing it?
    I attended a price optimization seminar and the lecture said a very interesting thing,
    not all customers are the same, so why treat them as such.
    Itunes one price fits all method hides and straight jackets a very diverse process. we've also allowed our retail models to be conformed by the same thing. not all media costs the same to produce so why price it as such. convenience and simplicity etc sure, but it really does make it difficult to budget for projects which each are different.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    xnet now filtering hotfile links.
    They seem really committed to getting in the way of pirate material transfers

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Hmmm, I'm downloading it right now. Do they go by IP address or credit card details?

    I can only guess that because you registered in the US they've decided that's where you are.

    And, happily, Brad from Ghostly sent me a nice email to apologise and provide a working link. Good indie guy stuff.

    Although they probably still need to get their distribution and their e-commerce better sorted.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Itunes one price fits all method hides and straight jackets a very diverse process.

    they've had a variable pricing structure for about six months now.

    A reasonable one hit wonder can also cover costs pretty quickly...going back a decade we'd recouped 2 videos and an album from sales of How Bizarre as a single in NZ and Australia before we'd even released the album and the return that it was recouped on per unit sale was less than you earn on iTunes if you license via an aggregator

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    they've had a variable pricing structure for about six months now.

    Yes, but you understand my point.
    in all new releases for one week they didn't all cost the same to make. allowing for discounting for promotional effect the prices don't vary. same with retail, its $24.95, $29.95, $34.95 or import.
    They're pretty standardised units, and mostly no one bucks the trend.

    Where as project costs vary greatly.

    A reasonable one hit wonder can also cover costs pretty quickly.

    you're calling how bizarre a reasonable one hit wonder?
    If I called it pretty exceptional its still a massive understatement by nz standards.

    truth is you have to not just be a hit but absolutely out of the ball park to kick into the territory needed to cover the rest of the project, which is why the artists strive for the album model.

    What are the top 5 singles that have done as well from nz kicking it internationally?.

    don't dream its over
    How bizarre

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

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