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Speaker: Copyright Must Change

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  • Simon Grigg,

    I'll be interested to see any use of the term "intellectual property" predating 1960, and the earliest common use appears to be around the establishment of WIPO in 1965. My view is that it's always been a deliberate attempt to obscure the nature of copyright in favour of large corporates.

    Corporates have been a massive, indeed dominant, part of music copyright since, oh, about 1850 (just ask Stephen Foster's heirs). In the US and the UK the huge publishing houses utterly controlled the use, dissemination and remuneration from, written musical composition. Not sure how much more it could be obscured in their favour.

    The same goes for master recordings, which have been dominated and controlled by the companies which have now mutated into the 4 majors, since the beginnings of recorded sound.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Simon, I appreciate your thoughtful and well-informed contributions.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Ta Sacha, I guess I just have a year or two tucked away thinking about this stuff and I have a silly head for retaining pointless facts. But for all that, I think the creative industries have a brighter and more electric future ahead than at any in the past. The possibilities...

    Oh, and Russell, I'm not offended by Rob. He's a very passionate sort of guy, and mostly in the right direction. It's all good.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    I'm not offended by Rob. He's a very passionate sort of guy, and mostly in the right direction. It's all good.

    thank you simon.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Corporates have been a massive, indeed dominant, part of music copyright since, oh, about 1850 (just ask Stephen Foster's heirs). In the US and the UK the huge publishing houses utterly controlled the use, dissemination and remuneration from, written musical composition. Not sure how much more it could be obscured in their favour.

    True, for music and for a lesser extent books. There are many other things that have become part of copyright, and patents, such as gene sequences, medicines, chemical processes and plants. The markets for these things have exploded since the 60's

    Stephen Foster's is a sad tale, but not directly related. As a pioneer professional songwriter, he fell afoul of the fact that America was a pirate nation and had been since its inception. Copyright should have prevented what happened to him but no-one thought too much about it until after he was dead.

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    perhaps if piracy was stemmed then media providers would pull finger to supply legitimately in the ways people want.

    there have been some really good suggestions on how that might be implemented

    Please do elaborate on those suggested solutions..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Copyright should have prevented what happened to him but no-one thought too much about it until after he was dead.

    It should have but the piracy angle (quite legal piracy mind) in the USA, where the publishers are now mostly owned by the record labels or their parent groups, after they were bought up in the 50s onwards, continues. Now its just been renamed as Controlled Composition or Maximum Aggregate Mechanical Penny Royalty Limit. But it still stinks and, repeating myself again, is another reason why the majors don't deserve a break.

    Ever wondered why there were 14 songs on a UK Beatles album, but 10 on an American one?

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    __I'm not offended by Rob. He's a very passionate sort of guy, and mostly in the right direction. It's all good.__

    thank you simon.

    You're very gracious Simon, but you were clearly pretty pissed off with the nature of the exchange by the time you signed off yesterday, and from my point of view it was the kind of thing that can kill this place.

    It works here because we all respect each other's knowledge and experience, and that wasn't being done.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Jarno van der Linden,

    I have been thinking about the reasons for torrenting international TV shows rather than watching them on local broadcast TV. The biggest draw for me is getting it the same day (or near enough) as the world premiere. Following a TV series, combined with the internet, has become an international social community event. Seeing an episode even a few weeks later means one can not participate in that community.
    Other advantages are the lack of ads, and the ability to view on demand.

    "Buy the DVD" satisfies some of those desires, but fails on the time issue. Furthermore, the price of a DVD is set with values such as the expectation of watching it multiple times over many years, while many TV shows are far more transient in my life, often with only a single viewing.

    There is also an apparent lack of harm in illegally downloading a show. The broadcaster doesn't have a clue whether or not I am viewing TV. I timeshift the ads away when I do. The distributors get their money from the TV station (who in turn gets money from advertisers). Exactly no money is gained or lost by any of them if I watch a torrent for free, instead of watching the tele for free.

    Can a broadcaster have a system that meets my needs, with the added benefit of being a legitimate alternative to bookmarking the TV show section of The Pirate Bay?

    Here are some interesting numbers:
    Last year approximately 4 million people in NZ watched TV for an average of about 3 hours a day.
    TVNZ operating revenue for 2008 was about $340 million.
    Let's make a wild guess and say that TVNZ got half of the viewing time, 1.5 hours a day per viewer, or about 550 hours/year.
    That makes for an income per viewer of $85 a year, or 15.5 cents per hour, or between $3 and $4 for a typical season.

    So what I wish to see, is a pay-per-download system, where for $3 or $4 a season you get to download the latest episodes within 24 hours of world premier, no ads, at a quality at least equivalent to torrents. No DRM, no custom players, no time restrictions, as none of those are used on normal broadcast either. As an extra bonus, those downloads will be served from within NZ instead of being slower and expensive international traffic.

    Unfortunately it would require the cooperation of the distributors, so that the broadcaster can acquire the shows per-view, and I suspect not enough distributors would go for it at that pricepoint.

    Nelson • Since Oct 2007 • 82 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    A propos not much, I just paid 18 bucks for a big screen showing of James Bond (thank God for a semi-decent editor - are you listening Mr. Jackson?).

    Anyhoo, does that give me the some moral standing to spend the evening watching youtube?

    Just asking.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    It works here because we all respect each other's knowledge and experience, and that wasn't being done.

    Totally agree. I have to say it actually wasn't a nice experience imitating the childishness even briefly. I had expected post-telling-off good behaviour to last longer than a day, so it was disappointing to see the same bad faith niggling creeping back in - without the slightest provocation.

    I don't understand why anyone would feel compelled to adopt that as a permanent communication tactic, but I'm thoroughly sick of it as you all may have gathered and it really does affect the standard of behaviour that people see as sanctioned if there are no consequences. I'd love to know if Rich Shera made such a brief appearance here because of the tone - and it's a bit embarrassing the way Patrick has been treated more recently.

    If someone has proven time and again that they simply can't act like a grown up, then they deserve banishing to hang out with their similarly rude peers. You know it's what would happen in a real-life situation so I don't see why it should be different here. Having said all that, it's clearly Russell's decision and I'll respect it.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    but you were clearly pretty pissed off with the nature of the exchange by the time you signed off yesterday, and from my point of view it was the kind of thing that can kill this place

    More frustrated than pissed off. I have a pretty thick skin after all these years. But Rob also emailed and apologised for any offence caused, which was gracious of him too.

    Incidentally, if anyone's interested this is a part of what Rob does.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    You're very gracious Simon, but you were clearly pretty pissed off

    I understand your perspective russell but simon spoke for himself and you can take him at his word regarding what he just said.
    he said he was not in the slightest offended and he's said it before.
    he reacted in my defense a couple of times in the other thread and
    I've had contact outside of list with him and he's voiced his coolness there too.
    My aim is not to offend someone I respect, but I was trying to get a point across and I didn't achieve it. Simon and I were at cross purposes and he's way better at expressing his views than I am.

    It works here because we all respect each other's knowledge and experience, and that wasn't being done.

    that's not true regarding my respect of simon.
    And its not true regarding how many people on here react to others in threads other than copyright.
    predominantly it is civilised but there are lots and lots of examples of people pushing their views on others, as you'd expect when you get a bunch of well read opinionated people in one space.

    I've sent you an email on the topic in private and I hope you will take it in the spirit intended.

    as for sacha's baiting, if you're consistent you'll deal with it.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    baiting? hilarious!

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • stephen walker,

    unintended irony?

    nagano • Since Nov 2006 • 646 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Stop please..everyone.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Incidentally, if anyone's interested this is a part of what Rob does.

    Nice approach, Rob. I am typing this listening to "Thinking of you" by mulchzoid.

    Kind off a chill pill.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Sorry I missed putting in the link

    http://www.myspace.com/mulchzoid

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Nice approach, Rob.

    yeah it was all a ploy to drive traffic to the site an simon was in on it all along. :)
    glad you like david's stuff though. he's one gifted lad. and prolific.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Patrick Pilcher,

    So who has signed the petition against S92?

    Wellington • Since Jan 2009 • 7 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Oh yes. Big surprise there ;-)

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    I would happily sign a petition that wasnt quite so - loaded.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Hi Islander.

    That is interesting feedback. Seeing as you oppose S92 could you give your views to the site creators about your concerns?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Don Christie, I went & reread the petition, and because it clearly states that the petition is only about the first goal, signed it. The *loaded* part for me comes under the DRM goal ('copying texts for educational purposes.) I've fought several minor battles to retain electronic copyright for short stories & poems.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Islander - I am not behind the site but nonetheless I very much appreciate you taking the time to do that. Thank you.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

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