OnPoint by Keith Ng

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OnPoint: What gorilla?

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  • Islander,

    Because I *am* a Maori, it's not impossible at all - when we are talking/working with matters Maori. I dont go along with religious matters when they come up in a tribal setting - I thought I had made that clear? Both, if they are European-originated matters, or poorly-understood /expressedmatters o te ao motuheka/temotuheka o te ao-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I remember we had that good conversation here a few months ago about the debasement of karakia by christianity, and Mikaere linked to a traditional example. Was just before he helped Russell craft his marae welcome at Foocamp.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19683 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Words - sung or spoken*- can be karakia. Karakia affect people (it is a moot point whether they can deeply affect other animals - cetaceans for example (chk. the Gilbert Islands)- or whether it is 'just' the sound patterns.)
    In my experience, karakia in a marae setting can be deeply Maori traditional (and almost untranslatable except by the most expert of people) or impromptu (made for the occaision) in Maori, or in Maori but christian/bahai/etc..

    *They can also be potencies, all by themselves-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Words - sung or spoken*- can be karakia. Karakia affect people (it is a moot point whether they can deeply affect other animals - cetaceans for example (chk. the Gilbert Islands)- or whether it is 'just' the sound patterns.)
    In my experience, karakia in a marae setting can be deeply Maori traditional (and almost untranslatable except by the most expert of people) or impromptu (made for the occaision) in Maori, or in Maori but christian/bahai/etc..

    *They can also be potencies, all by themselves-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Islander, are you what one might call a contemporary Maori? IE: That you don't buy into the traditional religious concepts, such as mana, tau and noa.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4310 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Sorry, should have read Mana, Tapu and Noa.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4310 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'tau' steven c: if it's 'tapu' - yes, there are areas that are tapu (one of my olds said, You dont have to *believe* in tapu - it's like electricity, it works anyway. I dont *believe* in tapu as ascribed to parts of the human body in the sense of 'holy' or 'sacred' (and that wasnt what the word meant originally.) Likewise tapu's intrinsic necessary counterpoint, noa-

    -please note: these are not *religious* terms per se: they are terms invented by people seeked to understand the world, and order their society.

    Ditto 'mana.'Mana exists: it is both a quality youy are born with; that you can increase, and you can kill. It has nothing to do with religion: it has everything to do with human status & action or understanding.

    O, and I am certainly a comporary Maori! I'm still alive, and am an enrolled Kai Tahu.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    o damty - 'people seeking to understand"

    Edit button, edit button, wherefore art thou edit button?

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    (sigh) comporary = *contemporary"

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    they are terms invented by people seeked to understand the world, and order their society.

    Thats precisely what religion is.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4310 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    No. Religion is practise of a paticular kind: it requires
    a)worship (generally of a deity or deities - essential non-human others-religion essentially demands belief in the supernatural:)
    b)belief in -shall we politely call it 'the necessity' or 'requirement' of adherents of the religion to perform acts of worship and the practise thereof, however irrational
    c)and/or specific acts of compliance or noncompliance (dietary/time-ordering/other proscriptions.)


    My expression, 'terms invented by people seeking to understand the world, and order their society' applies as well to politics and the sciences...

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Or religion could as easily mean, trying to make sense out of stuff that doesn't make sense.

    Some dictionaries say it's " an organized method of worshiping god) or gods?

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4310 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Totally agree with your first comment there steve c-

    and yes, religion is generally organised, one way or the other...

    Anyway, all this is way offthread, and interesting as it has been for me to read your insights/opinions, I'll leave it here.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    So your not going to change your mind about aligning yourself with religious people, any religious people, as far as reforming the prison system is concerned.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4310 posts Report Reply

  • mildgreens,

    That the rest of the world is talking seriously about the unintended consequences of a (legal and illegal) drug policy that creates criminals and we have a LAW COMMISSION inquiring into alcohol AND illicit drug management escapes the media AND political anal'ists.

    The blind adherence to the Single Conventions on Narcotics is driving the deviancy amplification and disrespect for rule of law that is choking our judicial, corrections and policing while we collectively wax lyrical about sending messages ~ to whom fur-chris-ake. We spend mega-millions on failure and sheeple keep voting for it.

    Like (another) 600 police. A sign of success would be 600 less Police.
    But they vote for it... like somehow they will be miraculously protected.

    Dont Vote for Failure, Vote for Success... reform the DYSFUNCTIONAL drug laws, remove the double standards (and save a bazzilion at the same time).

    And watch the prisons (and all that it means) reduce back to where it used to be.

    Open another Hospital, and a few more schools with the money thus saved....

    Now there would be a politician I could vote for.

    christchurch • Since Nov 2007 • 12 posts Report Reply

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