Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: WOTY: The Kindness Scandal

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  • Sacha, in reply to steven crawford,

    There is more than one flavour of feminist. I'd rather not divert this thread into us men talking about that. Let kindness reign.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to Sacha,

    Yes. I think men self-labelling as "feminist" (thereby also claiming some stake in defining what that is) is on a par with someone claiming to have "mana": while establishing that the label/quality is viewed positively by the claimant, it rather misses the point of what is being described.

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1886 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    I’d rather not divert this thread into us men talking about that.

    I’m respecting your moderators prerogative. But I disagree that there’s anything wrong with men talking about feminism. And I suppose developing a definition of Turf is also off the table. Okay.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Yes. I think men self-labelling as “feminist” (thereby also claiming some stake in defining what that is) is on a par with someone claiming to have “mana”: while establishing that the label/quality is viewed positively by the claimant, it rather misses the point of what is being described.

    I normally respect what you say on here, but sorry, that’s just lazy thinking.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to linger,

    at the very least, it is certainly much harder to be accepted as speaking for a group when you visibly are not directly a member of it.

    Which is why disadvantaged minority groups need us to rise to the challenge and speak up in support of them, despite the negative and dismissive backlash.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • linger,

    Um. I’m sorry if that came off as directed at you personally; I intend it to apply to myself as much as anyone. (For context: I was remembering two much earlier threads I’ve been in, one about advocacy for minorities, and another about the difficulty of measuring “mana").
    I agree with your most recent point above, with the caveat that we also check members of the disadvantaged group agree with what we're saying!

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1886 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to linger,

    No, I’m probably needing a quiet cup of tea right about now:-)

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • linger,

    (TL;DR it's more important to do it and live it than worry about the label or the definition, eh.)

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1886 posts Report Reply

  • Neil, in reply to Sacha,

    Interested to hear how you think other people will respond to what you have said here

    I’m not sure I know what you mean. Perhaps my song reference was too obscure.

    Since Nov 2016 • 346 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Feminism explained by woman: everydayfeminism

    I’m a feminist in option
    B.

    TERFs are not feminists in ether option.

    Merry Christmas everyone.

    Option A: Feminism is a movement for and about women.

    To some, feminists are women striving to better the lives of women. Feminism is a movement for gender equality socially, politically, and economically.

    Each wave of feminism has expanded to include multiple groups of marginalized people in society, but its basis remains as a movement for and by women (including trans women).

    Men can surely have a role in this understanding of feminism, but men’s relationship to feminism would be better understood as an ally/solidarity relationship built on accountable work.

    Option B: Feminism is a movement about gender justice.

    Patriarchy hurts everyone, even if it hurts women and non-binary people more and in profoundly different ways than cisgender men.

    Feminism, then, is a movement to combat systemic and institutional oppression that disproportionately affects disenfranchised groups in our society with the main focus on women.

    Thus, in this concept, feminism is a movement where people of all genders can be feminists if they’re willing to do the work to dismantle patriarchal oppression.

    So where men fit in feminism depends a lot on who they’re in community with and how communities understand the role of feminism in working for justice

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • Neil, in reply to steven crawford,

    TERFs are not feminists in ether option.

    I’m not sure how classifying some women feminists as not being feminists is going to protect trans woman from violence - which is carried out by men.

    Since Nov 2016 • 346 posts Report Reply

  • FletcherB, in reply to steven crawford,

    TERFs are not feminists in ether option.

    So, if the F in TERF stands for Feminists, and anyone fitting the description of TERF cannot possibly be a feminists, obviously we are all discussing a type of person that doesn't actually exist?

    That does not seem logical (or even plausible).

    I suspect it's more complex than this?

    West Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 887 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    This thread topic is about words. TERF was nominated here as a word, not an acronym.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • FletcherB, in reply to steven crawford,

    And what does that word mean?

    West Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 887 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Neil,

    I’m not sure how classifying some women feminists as not being feminists is going to protect trans woman from violence – which is carried out by men.

    You are correct, but it's not going to isolate transgender people further. Trans women are subjected to prison rape in this country. So maybe, is it reasonable to say that excluding trans women from say womens prisons under the feminist banner might be a little bit sick?

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to FletcherB,

    And what does that word mean?

    Well, its not in the oxford dictionary yet.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • Neil, in reply to steven crawford,

    So maybe, is it reasonable to say that excluding trans women from say womens prisons under the feminist banner might be a little bit sick?

    I would agree with that. I work in a hospital setting where there is from time to time trans women and they are considered as women including risk from men.

    None of the staff though would have any idea of all this argument over TERF and would just go fuck off with that nonsense.

    People can be good to others or bad to others and it doesn’t have much to do with what a small number of activists get worked up about.

    Since Nov 2016 • 346 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Neil,

    None of the staff though would have any idea of all this argument over TERF and would just go fuck off with that nonsense.

    Thats reassuring.

    And to conclude.

    The TERF is an oxymoron.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    OH, sorry Sacha, I'm definitely stopping this now. Kindness...

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4306 posts Report Reply

  • Neil, in reply to steven crawford,

    Thats reassuring.

    My colleagues do a lot of good in difficult circumstances and we often argue about what is actually the situation.

    Since Nov 2016 • 346 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Closing the thread for Christmas. Kind thoughts all!

    x

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22747 posts Report Reply

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