Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Will the grown-ups ever arrive home?

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  • Ben Austin, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Actually, that is a good question. What is the point of a flag, these days, as opposed to the historic or recreational yachting reasons? I'm not convinced that it necessarily has a single, useful reason for existence, which, if it is recognition, why it is so important uninformed strangers can easily draw a contrast.

    London • Since Nov 2006 • 1022 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Ben Austin,

    What is the point of a flag, these days,

    Which was kind of my point. As our esteemed PM says "At the end of the day we live in a global world". However mangled and tautological that statement maybe it does make his stand on the flag rather hypocritical and makes his motives more obvious...
    "Sir John Key, the man that gave us our flag"
    Sad, shallow and meaningless.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    What is the point of a flag, these days,

    They are use for communication on boats. The yellow flag shows the boat has arrived in the country and has not been cleared by the authority's. Then there is the flag to announce the boats nationality. There are legal consequences for the inappropriate use of flags in these situations.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4411 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    “Sir John Key, the man that gave us our flag”

    Give him one of these.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Soon Lee, in reply to Sacha,

    Sppk

    (Ritual self-disemvoweling found elseweb & too good not to share)

    Auckland • Since Apr 2013 • 142 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Soon Lee,

    Ritual self-disemvoweling

    the first cut is the deepest...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7943 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    brv!

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19706 posts Report Reply

  • Ben Austin, in reply to steven crawford,

    So it is useful for boats. Ok, do we have any demonstrated examples of New Zealand boats or ships having issues, solely due to the confusion between our flag and Australia's?

    London • Since Nov 2006 • 1022 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    http://www.standfor.co.nz/#entries

    We're getting to be a whiny, complainy, almost seditious wee bunch....

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1344 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    We’re getting to be a whiny, complainy, almost seditious wee bunch….

    Thank goodness :)

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2108 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    Attachment

    We’re getting to be a whiny, complainy, almost seditious wee bunch….

    Thank goodness :)

    And unlike so many online opinionfests, all pretty civil so far.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Attachment

    The flightless bird.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4411 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Ben Austin,

    So it is useful for boats. Ok, do we have any demonstrated examples of New Zealand boats or ships having issues, solely due to the confusion between our flag and Australia’s?

    There wouldn't be any big problems as long as the yellow flag is flying. That's the legaly required declaration. Unregistered boats are not alowed to fly any national flags. Inernationaly registed boats enjoy consular some status. the actual design of the flag isn't particularly important, becouse whatever nation flag you fly needs to be backed up by papers.

    As an aside. It is easier for an Austrailian boat to leave New Zealand, than a New Zealand flagged boat. This is because we have more stringent safty requirements. Foreign regised boats are exemp from a lot of that. Back in the day when Whangarei was trying to be Auckland, and Auckland was trying to be Club Med, the New Zealand Government could have been looking at what insetives it's flag has for supper yachts to register here.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4411 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Meanwhile, back on Planet Key...
    This from a cuppla years back..
    Money trail leads home to New Zealand
    NICKY HAGER

    The comments are interesting, as is the article.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to steven crawford,

    Unregistered boats are not alowed to fly any national flags

    Reference please: http://legislation.govt.nz/????

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    I see my problem:

    In 1859 a launch 'English Packet' owned by Messrs Tobin of Liverpool, was seized by a boat from HMS 'Vesuvius' on the Congo River off Cabinda, for carrying British colours when not registered as British. She had been built on the coast and collected produce from small towns to convey to the Depot. The seizure was declared illegal. The launch was a British ship and entitled to the privileges of a British ship, but not entitled to protection. She ought to have been registered, but there was no penalty for not being registered, and not liable to seizure for carrying British colours.
    [MT 9/9 file 13236]
    David Prothero, 27 November 2010

    We nearly had to call Peter Williams QC, over a similar incident in Fiji.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4411 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Apparently the Minister can make rules about the manner in which the flag is to be flown, either "by notice in the Gazette or otherwise".

    The online Gazette database doesn't seem to have a very good search mechanism, but if I browse the notices, sort alphabetically by Act and click through to about page 8224, the notices seem to go from ones declared under the Fishing Industry Board Amendment Act to those declared under the Food Act, with nothing declared under the Flag Act in between.... at least since they started going online around the early 1990s.

    Maybe a former Minister used the "or otherwise" clause to avoid the Gazette notice and instead declare the rule by arranging their breakfast spaghetti, before eating it.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to izogi,

    The online Gazette database doesn’t seem to have a very good search mechanism,

    Everytime I look at it I think "this is a good candidate for a #GovHack"

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2932 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Looking further it's probably somewhere in the Ship Registration Act. I'm just interpreting this by myself, which means I'm probably wrong.

    I can see:

    * S58 says that all NZ registered ships (which covers most ships >=24 metres that aren't registered in other countries) have to fly the either NZ flag or the NZ marine flag, but not both, when signalled by NZ armed forces, and when berthed either in NZ or at a foreign port.

    * S59 says that the nationality of a ship has to be correctly declared to customs before it's allowed to leave for an overseas port.

    * S60 states that a ship that's not a NZ-registered ship is not allowed to do anything to make it appear to be an NZ-registered ship, and similarly a NZ ship is not allowed to pretend to be registered overseas. (The text says "New Zealand ship", but that's defined earlier as meaning a ship that's registered to New Zealand".)

    So if you're NZ-registered and fly some other country's flag, you might be in trouble, as with being overseas-registered and flying a NZ flag. But the law doesn't seem to care about overseas ships flying flags of the wrong country as long as it's not NZ. It also doesn't seem to care much about smaller unregistered vessels flying flags for any country, unless maybe it could reasonably be interpreted as signifying the ship is registered in NZ when it isn't.... but s58 doesn't really say that unregistered NZ ships can't fly the NZ flag. It just says that NZ-registered ones have to.

    And as usual when I try to do this, I may have missed much more.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Attachment

    So what about the jolly old jolly roger?
    Alan Gibbs used to fly one on his gin palace, Laissez-faire . He also carried a cannon on the fore deck. As far as I can tell, both of those things were illegal but then he was Allan Gibbs and has lots a dosh so I guess a blind eye was turned in that direction, after all, he only represented a very small percentage of New Zealand.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Stewart,

    Key's determination about the flag is just him wanting a re-branding of NZ/Aotearoa with something more brand-specific and instantly recognisable.

    Te Ika A Maui - Whakatane… • Since Oct 2008 • 577 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to nzlemming,

    Speaking of children in need parental supervision, is anyone tuned into this Ben Rachinger thing. Seems so very crazy.

    It was a quite bizarre interlude which now seems to be over.

    "The user deleted their Medium account"

    Damn... I was looking forward to a happy ending.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1434 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Alfie,

    He has apparently turned his material over to a journalist instead.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19706 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Alfie,

    It was a quite bizarre interlude which now seems to be over.

    “The user deleted their Medium account”

    Damn… I was looking forward to a happy ending.

    According to the Twitterverse, Rachinger took it down because of legal threats, and that he's 'over the whole thing and others are taking up the story to the world outside blogs/Twitter'.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5429 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    The Rachinger story featured on The Nation today -- oddly, I can't locate an online version on the TV3 site. The Herald has a summary of the claims.

    The IT consultant posted his claims on the internet earlier this year, and this morning The Nation broadcast an interview with him, detailing his claims Slater commissioned him to hack into left-wing political blog The Standard to try to uncover the identities of the authors of blogs written anonymously or under pseudonyms.

    "Cameron Slater asked me, for financial benefit, to hack into The Standard website and to pull out any and all information about authors of anonymous blog posts on The Standard and also to find out email addresses and IP addresses for further hacking," Mr Rachinger told TV's The Nation.

    Slater has long claimed blogs on The Standard are ghost written by Labour insiders, including staff members.

    In an encrypted text sent to Mr Rachinger in January, Slater allegedly said: "I want proof of admin at The Standard ... I will destroy them."

    He later allegedly said: "I want them all outed, all the MPs, [The Standard founder Lynn] Prentice, [Labour Party chief of staff Matt] McCarten ... all of them."

    Mr Rachinger says Slater asked him to "focus on this job of getting into The Standard", and said he had $5000 available to pay him to do so. But Slater would not name his backer, who was funding the hacking request.

    Hmmm... paying a hacker to infiltrate websites. Isn't there a law against that? Counties Manukau CIB confirm they are investigating Rachinger's allegations but say it's "a complex investigation" and a decision on charges would be "some way off."

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1434 posts Report Reply

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