Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: These things we must now change

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  • Sacha, in reply to Farmer Green,

    all violent threats to enforce silence are equally unacceptable

    Ah, the level paying field fallacy.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Farmer Green,

    Simon, the edit has timed out. I don’t mind if you flag that comment for deletion by mods.
    Just for the record I took the threats at face value, because others might do so too, and feel empowered to carry them out.

    Lower North Island • Since Nov 2012 • 776 posts Report Reply

  • Farmer Green, in reply to Sacha,

    I suggest that those who might copy cat the suggested actions do not make such distinctions.Are you suggesting that violent repression of some views is O.K.? Or that inciting violence against those you disagree with is fine.? Is that not one of the things that we need to change?

    Lower North Island • Since Nov 2012 • 776 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Farmer Green,

    Depends what you mean by 'violent'.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Farmer Green, in reply to Sacha,

    Perhaps you have never heard of The Lance Wiggs Invective Series.
    Perhaps Lance is not left- leaning. But interesting as an example of the type of exhortation to violence that has previously been deemed acceptable if not enthusiastically approved. In the wrong minds this rhetoric , if that is all that it is , is dangerous. That is my only point.

    Lower North Island • Since Nov 2012 • 776 posts Report Reply

  • Farmer Green, in reply to Sacha,

    Violent – Intended to intimidate/ silence/produce conformity by inducing fear.
    Some violence is O.K.?
    How do the mentally - challenged know which is the O.K. form?

    Lower North Island • Since Nov 2012 • 776 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Farmer Green,

    *Plausible* threat. Coming from a person/group with access to power and weapons.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Farmer Green, in reply to Sacha,

    Almost anything can be weaponised. We all have access.

    Lower North Island • Since Nov 2012 • 776 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to Sacha,

    Spending time discussing the merit of particular examples of hate speech is only worthwhile if the intent is to reach consensus. That requires reciprocity.

    My point is that the current law has marginal relevance due to lack of implementation. Whining and moaning about hate speech on political blogs almost always fails to include specific examples. I believe that is why the whiners & moaners always fail to proceed with prosecutions.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • Farmer Green, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    It is possible that your " whiners and moaners" do not wish to enlarge the target to make it more identifiable. Then there is the legal fees question.
    But the nutter who is triggered cares nought for these distinctions.

    Lower North Island • Since Nov 2012 • 776 posts Report Reply

  • Farmer Green, in reply to Sacha,

    I consider it plausible that mentally unstable people can be triggered by hate speech. Tell me I have nothing to fear, that they will realise it was not serious( if that is the case). Just jokes right?
    “Life- long incarceration is too good for climate deniers”
    It isn’t funny.
    I thought we might agree that it is dangerous to spray this sort of invective. Maybe I should HTFU.

    Lower North Island • Since Nov 2012 • 776 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to Farmer Green,

    Well okay, but I don't see the point of having a law if everyone ignores it. Surely parliament passed the damn thing so it would be used? Or was it intended as an exercise in moral grand-standing? I agree the pc-brigade would likely be satisfied with a sham, but laws are meant to be for everyone.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • Farmer Green, in reply to linger,

    I see now that you had already made the point, somewhat more succinctly :-)
    'On ya.

    Lower North Island • Since Nov 2012 • 776 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    Following an offensive Facebook post about the mosque shootings a 28 year old Masterton woman has been charged with inciting racial disharmony. Good.

    One of the downsides of living in a tolerant society has been a reluctant tolerance of the racists openly living/posting/broadcasting in our midst. I truly hope that those days are almost over.

    Given the grotesque evil which visited our country last week, if ever there was a time to declare our complete intolerance of racism and hate speech, that time is now. Let's make that New Zealand's new norm.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1381 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to Alfie,

    Also a link there to this similar prosecution: https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/111334495/christchurch-man-arrested-for-enticing-racial-or-ethnic-hate

    If these and any similar copycat prosecutions succeed, that will establish case-law precedent - based on the actual evidence specified. That will provide a basis for describing hate speech accurately.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Attachment

    via twitter

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    Also a link there to this similar prosecution...

    Posting "target acquired" over a photo of the mosque in advance of the shooting suggests that case may be more sinister. I believe that person is still in custody.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1381 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Hilton Wells,

    Let’s not be defensive about it, Christchurch does not ‘have these issues to itself’, I agree, but that sounds a bit like what-aboutism, rather than addressing how it is in Christchurch.

    No, it is not. It’s saying we all have some shit to attend to.

    Also, clearly it was not Christchurch that was attacked Russell. Muslims were attacked and bystanders that didn’t fit the target profile of the killer were not targeted.

    On this, can I suggest you go back upthread and read what Emma has to say about this. There were people posting “fucking Christchurch” comments on social media with an hour of the attack and I don’t believe that was okay.

    And finally, there were non-Muslim kids whose friends weren't at school on Monday. Because they'd been murdered. Show some empathy, for goodness sake.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22747 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to Sacha,

    That's an excellent design. I agree it sketches mass psychology well. Not all of it of course, but it has to be selective to fulfill the agenda of the designer.

    I think it captures a considerable portion of centrists: many of those who prefer to be apolitical, who lack a moral compass, or principles.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7886 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Nazis are still a thing, then. "14.88 is a hate symbol popular with white extremists", but no explanation why. Devil is probably in the details...

    "The company's website www.BIIG.co.nz, is an acronym for the company's full name Beneficial Insulation Installs Guaranteed. BIIg was the name of a barracks at Auschwitz concentration camp". Biig on symbolism.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    Phew! Glad all this symbolism is now being exposed, those people had really disappeared into a rabbit warren of hate!! Im just dismayed. It needs exposing so we can all be on our guard.
    Im not linking to it Jim Jefferies( he is not a bigot) an Oz Comic now in the USA has a clip on youtube watch it there is you want, about white supremacists in Australia in the light of March 15. The unashamed bigotry on display is mind boggling. He tried to make it funny but its not a funny subject.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1881 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Mental Health Foundation sets things straight.

    "Shooting people is not a symptom of mental illness. White supremacy is not a mental illness," it said in a statement.
    ...
    While it understood there was comfort in believing the shooter was an outlier, or "different to us", the foundation statement added it was not something to hide behind during the healing process.

    "We're using 'mentally ill' as a short-hand for 'violent' and 'threatening' and 'a risk to the community'. This is deeply troubling."

    The foundation said mental illness shouldn't be a scapegoat because it would mean letting New Zealand off the hook from reckoning with racism, white supremacy and anti-immigrant sentiments.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    “14.88 is a hate symbol popular with white extremists”, but no explanation why.

    As I understand 88 means HH (8th letter) which means Heil Hit...etc
    dunno about the '14'

    I always thought it telling & apt (and wondered if it was deliberate) that Fox TV news is on channel 88 in NZ...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7886 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    "14.88 is a hate symbol popular with white extremists", but no explanation why.

    It's not something I'd come across either, but apparently every nazi will recognise the symbolism. The Anti-Defamation League has a concise answer.

    1488 is a combination of two popular white supremacist numeric symbols. The first symbol is 14, which is shorthand for the "14 Words" slogan: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."

    The second is 88, which stands for "Heil Hitler" (H being the 8th letter of the alphabet). Together, the numbers form a general endorsement of white supremacy and its beliefs.

    As such, they are ubiquitous within the white supremacist movement - as graffiti, in graphics and tattoos, even in screen names and e-mail addresses, such as aryanprincess1488@hate.net. Some white supremacists will even price racist merchandise, such as t-shirts or compact discs, for $14.88.

    Anyone who'd choose $14.88 per m2 as an integral part of his company's branding knew exactly what he was doing. Highly offensive... and proud of it.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1381 posts Report Reply

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