Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: The song is not the same

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  • robbery,

    The slow inevitable death of DRM

    did it fall or was it pushed?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Simon, I miss the pea and carrot conversations.

    history, I think Blake..or at least one hopes so at least on one level

    Checked out those Virgin Blue flights yet?

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Blake Monkley,

    Checked out those Virgin Blue flights yet?

    I have but where the hell is Lewat Jalannya on the Aussie website...

    Auckland • Since Jul 2008 • 215 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    I don't think 'they' have quite the all pervasive muscle they might think they have.

    "they" will actually be the film and tv industry, music's just along for the ride. maybe 'music' is softening up the crowd for the headline act.

    and re you're sky's fallen comment, perhaps you could use the same argument to convince shops to remove video surveillance. I find it annoying when I'm in the pick an mix section and see a camera looking straight at me. not that i'm wanting to 'pirate' their non drm goodies, why are they treating me like a criminal.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    I think that DRM in general was a bill of goods sold to the media companies as a way to survive. The problem with ANY DRM is that you have to embed a secret in your customer's equipment and forbid them to look at it - the result is often the locking down of the entire piece of equipment or neutering its functionality - it's a pretty silly concept to build a business around when you think about it.

    The DRM providers popped up and sold the music companies what they wanted - control over a fast changing technology - except it was done pretty incompetently and generally pissed off the customers - more importantly it pissed of the geeks who'd bought shiny new toys and wanted to do cool stuff with them.

    I also think the media companies have a mistaken idea about what people think they are doing when they buy music. When I buy a CD I expect it to be mine, I can treat it like any other object I own - we all understand how to deal with things, what ownership means, it's ingrained in us from an early age - "we didn't sell you the music, just a license to use it as we see fit" is I think lost on most people - confusing and alienating your customers doesn't work as a business strategy.

    In reality the world has changed - big music companies also knew how to deal with things, they printed sheet music, then pressed LPs, then CDs and sold them, they had warehouses and brick and mortar stores - they have a gigantic world wide infrastructure in place to do that - but really they're selling access to information and we all have a quicker, faster, cheaper way to do that these days - (as I've said before) they're dinosaurs, the comet has landed, nuclear winter has kicked in and they're responding with lawyers, meanwhile the mammals are hiding in the cracks, evolving like crazy and hoping they don't get stomped on in the final frenzy

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2623 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I think I'm going to flame war on this...
    But seriously, promoting full page view, new templates and outline mode as new features in iWork shows how hard Apple have fallen.

    Look at it this way ... it's why they're finishing with Macworld Expo.

    There's just no way Macworld suits their product strategy. They're a consumer electronics company now, and launching products two weeks after Christmas is plainly wrong.

    There are certainly products on the way. Snow Leopard, an OS upgrade focused on performance and stability, is said to be ahead of schedule, and due mid-year. It'll be out before Windows 7.

    The alliance with Nvidia is yet to become visible, but I think there's little doubt that those Mac Minis, festooned with display ports and good for HD video, are coming. And they'll be able to use Open CL to share CPU tasks with the graphics card.

    iPhone developers are making money via the App Store, which has revolutionised the business of mobile app development.

    And they just put $99 iPhones into Wal-Mart.

    Apple's doing fine.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    ISP monitoring is going to be all about movies and video files, and the fringe benefit winners on that game may well be music copyright holders

    And I wish I had faith that our elected representatives would have the spine to tell the various major players in the media industry that wholesale deep-packet-inspection is not OK! Sadly, I don't. They'll drop to their collective knees and collectively swallow just as fast as they can get the authorising legislation written. Then they'll make the ISPs foot the bill for what will be a very expensive undertaking (tracking torrent traffic to ensure that you're not chasing someone who's downloading, say, FreeBSD (as I did this afternoon) is a very, very intensive exercise on several fronts), and that'll be that.

    I've seen zero evidence that my cynicism is misplaced. If Labour were happy to fellate big media, National won't be any less hesitant.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    and re you're sky's fallen comment, perhaps you could use the same argument to convince shops to remove video surveillance. I find it annoying when I'm in the pick an mix section and see a camera looking straight at me. not that i'm wanting to 'pirate' their non drm goodies, why are they treating me like a criminal.

    I'm confused? How does the camera stop you eating the sweets when and how you want once you've paid for it? DRM does exactly that.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    And they just put $99 iPhones into Wal-Mart.

    I have to admit that I was rather taken aback by the number of iPhones I saw in NZ. You just don't really see them up in this part of the world.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    And I wish I had faith that our elected representatives would have the spine to tell the various major players in the media industry that wholesale deep-packet-inspection is not OK!

    They'll do it when the industry bodies globally are told to take a leap. They are, after all, simply kowtowing. The battle on this is not with RIANZ who are little more than a mouthpiece, but with the international lobby groups like the IFPI and RIAA (who are American with global reach).

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    smirk at sam f's comment. ya cheeky fuck.

    A smirk was all it deserved... just poking the borax. Will stand back now and enjoy lurking the rest of the thread :)

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1611 posts Report Reply

  • Robert Harvey,

    I will still continue to purchase my music on CD while downloads (whether DRMed or not) are compressed (granted, a very, very few aren't) mostly because compressed music sounds so washed out, but also to get the album notes which (on the better music) often has useful and interesting information about the music, its composers and performers. But I guess I'm in a minority.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Westmere • Since Nov 2006 • 66 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Harris,

    Just while the trend is for threadjacking, I'd like to point people at http://useloos.com/mediaplayer/?itemid=4393 which I've just watched twice with a huge grin on my face

    Waikanae • Since Jul 2008 • 1343 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    They'll do it when the industry bodies globally are told to take a leap.

    IOW, they won't show any kind of leadership on the issue. What a shock. Spineless and purchased. Great combination for elected representatives, to be sure, especially if you're one of the ones who's got them bent over your pork barrel.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    I'm confused? How does the camera stop you eating the sweets when and how you want once you've paid for it? DRM does exactly that.

    but I don't want to sample the vege crisps and pine nuts when I've paid for them. I want to be able to do it and then decide if I want to pay later.
    why do they treat me like a criminal? I'm just a fan of their product.
    They deserve to have their goods stolen if they're going to treat their audience with such disrespect, etc etc,

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    tracking torrent traffic to ensure that you're not chasing someone who's downloading, say, FreeBSD (as I did this afternoon) is a very, very intensive exercise on several fronts)

    not wanting to further the argument that the sky is not falling at all (life's much more exciting when it is) but you sound like a technical expert on this sort of thing Matthew. Please do go into further detail on the costing of such an exercise.
    Be specific, we can handle it.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I want to be able to do it and then decide if I want to pay later.
    why do they treat me like a criminal?

    They don't. There is a vast difference between a store camera trying to prevent someone from taking the product..in the same way you can't just drag a tune from iTunes without clicking buy, and a device restricting the way you chew those nuts afterwards.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    a device restricting the way you chew those nuts afterwards

    Now that I'd like to see. Maybe our Steven Crawford could knock us up a prototype?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    and a device restricting the way you chew those nuts afterwards.

    that's a nicely sensational way of putting it simon.
    its a device that restricts the way you distribute the item.
    A device that has been poorly implement but its intent is to restrict distribution, not use, that it has failed on occasion to do that and that commentators have spat the dummy in the way they have reflects badly on both sides of the argument.

    I have no problem with media owners attempting to direct their media to the people that paid for it only, others it seems do have a problem with it.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Please do go into further detail on the costing of such an exercise.

    I don't know exact numbers, because it's not a field in which I work. But determining what a torrent is retrieving requires capturing the entire download, reassembling, and then hashing it against known infringing materials. So you have to have the scratch storage for hundreds of gigabytes (if not terrabytes) of simultaneous downloads. You have to have a powerful server to do the hashing/comparing of all the files. Plus you have to have a database server that stores millions of hashes.

    Even then you won't get everything, because changing the hash value of a file is trivial. A tiny change, even just to embedded naming information, will result in a new hash. So someone, somewhere, has to review every file with an unknown hash (obviously known-good hashes will be stored, too) to determine that it's not infringing.

    Remember, BitTorrent is not even close to being solely a mechanism for distributing copyright-infringing material. Most of the open source operating systems distribute over torrents, in addition to things like FTP/HTTP, and that's entirely legit. It's a more-efficient use of bandwidth to do it that way, and there'll be a lot of very seriously pissed-off people if you try to outlaw BT. There are already a few ISPs that are no-go areas for people who use OSS, because they're known to heavily throttle torrent traffic. Some game manufacturers distribute their updates via BT, too, and that's a paid-for service.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Online, distribution is production. There's bugger all point debating this issue with someone who just refuses to understand the difference between physical and virtual product, Dubber's "atoms and bits", or as I think Negroponte described it "atoms and electrons".

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    But determining what a torrent is retrieving requires capturing the entire download, reassembling, and then hashing it against known infringing materials

    really? and you know this how?
    Cos my little pirating machine can identify bits of files it needs and start download them all with in a few seconds of opening the program. it knows who its talking to (ip address) which bit of the file it needs and where to find it and place it and it does it all without asking me to help it at all. ie its not very labour intensive on my part.
    so just addressing your whole exorbitant cost angle of argument and nothing its chances are once people are allowed access to the activities of users and they have knowledge of how those people are sharing pirated material (bit torrent via vuse and the likes) all they have to do is write them selves a simple program to log files (which are named things like I robot and lethal weapon 8 etc) and they're away. and it won't cost them fuck all, infact it will be fully automated and what they'll get at the end of it all will be a list of names and addresses of people they can fuck with. pretty simple really, and inexpensive at that.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    There's bugger all point debating this issue with someone who just refuses

    I thought we were over all this sacha. why don't you talk to the other people and ignore me, just don't address anything I say. It makes me feel bad when you have a hissey fit which lets face it happens on a regular basis so lets just avoid it all together and you can preach to everyone else and completely ignore me. deal?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Cos my little pirating machine can identify bits of files it needs and start download them all with in a few seconds of opening the program. it knows who its talking to (ip address) which bit of the file it needs and where to find it and place it and it does it all without asking me to help it at all. ie its not very labour intensive on my part.

    Yeah, but you can't do anything with just those little bits of files. Without the entire target file, you've got nothing. Try downloading part of a torrented file and using it, and tell me if it works.

    Your machine can do this because it's got the torrent file. If the torrent file is requesting something named FreeBSD-7.1-RELEASE.dvd1.iso but it's actually the latest Batman movie, how is ISP filtering going to pick that up? You're requesting something with a legit name but infringing content. The only way filtering can catch that is to assemble the entire file and then compare it to known hashes.

    What you can do with your machine, which has the torrent file and knows which chunks it has and which chunks it needs, is utterly irrelevant to an ISP filtering system that must establish, independently of the name of the requested file, what a user is actually downloading. Which means getting the entire destination file, completely, in order to compute the final hash.

    Also, if a user only torrents part of a file and then cancels the download, have they actually downloading infringing material? What they've got is of no utility, and technically isn't a copy, only a partial one. What then?

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I thought I'd been doing quite well really, and I plan to go right back to talking to the other nice folk here. In general I'm happy to ignore stupidity, but not when it's thrust in my face every few minutes. Polluting this space with repetitive and wilful ignorance affects all of us. Drawing your attention to this every few months is hardly a "hissy fit", but I'm sure describing it that way makes you feel a whole lot better. As you were.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

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