Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: The Hager saga continues

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  • mark taslov,

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    Of course they could always take a leaf out of John’s playbook and rebrand.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    The modern progressive movement isn't a departure from some imagined ideal. I can't tell you how uninterested I am in debating matters of doctrinal purity at this point.

    Labour should be aiming to win the next election. EOFS.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to WH,

    I think you might be overstating the impracticality of idealism.

    Labour should be aiming to win the next election. EOFS

    Sure, but if they do it by turning into National, I wouldn’t see it as any kind of win if they did take the election.

    It is worth taking stock of just where the battle is actually at. People of the Left have actually pretty much dominated the direction of social policy. But they’ve lost all control over the direction of economics. It’s been a great win for the Right to de-politicise economics, conveying the impression that it’s a boring science well in hand. Neoliberalism is, bizarrely, a compromise position.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10655 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    I think you might be overstating the impracticality of idealism.

    Idealism is only impractical to the extent that it prevents you from achieving your goals. Are you a Labour supporter?

    if they [win] by turning into National, I wouldn’t see it as any kind of win if they did take the election

    I think I said that Labour needs to attract voters who are currently supporting National if it wants to implement its policies. There's an important difference between broadening your appeal and mimicking your opponent.

    But they’ve lost all control over the direction of economics

    Given that the economy has the left's primary concern for more than a century, that's a pretty major problem. On a longer term view, I agree that there's been a lot of progress.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    I was just looking at Audrey’s take on the Parties yesterday
    I was pleasantly surprised to see Labour are only down 2 seats and JohnKey is only up 1. Although I think any loss is a bummer, Labour don’t look as bad as I anticipated.
    Winston was the winner. So JohnKey is in a sense the loser. It was the right and middle support that shifted from National as much as Labour. National got 1, Maori lost 1. I suspect Seymour is being prepped to enbiggin Act for 2017. National aren’t really gaining more votes. Just a thought.
    The Greens asking National for a memorandum of understanding is a tad strange. Key constantly puts them down.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen R, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    The Greens asking National for a memorandum of understanding is a tad strange. Key constantly puts them down.

    Maybe it will shut up the chattering classes who say the Greens should suck up to National. Now the Greens can say "We offered to talk and they said no" and that's the end of it.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2009 • 259 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Stephen R,

    Now the Greens can say “We offered to talk and they said no” and that’s the end of it.

    So they were happy to wait until after the Election to try deal with National but not Labour? I recall Greens wanting Labour to make a deal with Labour before the Election.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    Before the election Labour were approached about running overtly as a coalition govt in waiting. They chose not to.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19729 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen R, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    So they were happy to wait until after the Election to try deal with National but not Labour? I recall Greens wanting Labour to make a deal with Labour before the Election.

    One of the things that an opposition needs in order to be taken seriously as a potential government is a story that convinces people they could form a government that wasn't full of internecine struggles, backstabbing and dysfunction.

    Bits of Labour seemed to delight in firing more barbs at the Greens than at National. I saw the Greens invitation to campaign together as an attempt to look like a credible alternative to National, AND to reduce the amount of strife between Labour and the Greens (which I think affected the support of both parties negatively).

    Wellington • Since Jul 2009 • 259 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    I recall Greens wanting Labour to make a deal with Labour before the Election.

    You might also recall Shane Jones's blatant slagging of the Greens in the very week that he was shamelessly flirting with Judith Collins. All of the current Labour leadership contenders appear to have been equally blindsided by the Jones cuckoo in their nest.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Bill Clinton and Obama won two terms, Tony Blair and Helen Clark won three.

    I'm not sure if Tony Blair is any model I want to see the left use. "War criminal" gets thrown around a fair bit in relation to his name these days in the UK.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    It is worth taking stock of just where the battle is actually at. People of the Left have actually pretty much dominated the direction of social policy. But they’ve lost all control over the direction of economics. It’s been a great win for the Right to de-politicise economics, conveying the impression that it’s a boring science well in hand. Neoliberalism is, bizarrely, a compromise position.

    +lots.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Now that the election has safely passed, hack John Armstrong is all concerned about dirty politics.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19729 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Stephen R,

    AND to reduce the amount of strife between Labour and the Greens (which I think affected the support of both parties negatively).

    If you take Jones out of the equation I couldn’t see much issue between the 2 and (like, when Roger Douglas was in Labour), Jones was always denigrating the Greens and not very supportive of Labour either, but just watching the address in reply debate now, Cunliffe was great and Bill English is fucking horrible . I just don’t understand why the Greens could even begin to think working with National is a sane idea. First up today, day 1, take away workers right to have a break at work.That’s a National first Policy that will pass.How could the Greens work with a Party prepared to do that?

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to WH,

    Are you a Labour supporter?

    Well, I voted for Sepuloni. Does that count?

    There’s an important difference between broadening your appeal and mimicking your opponent.

    There is. I'm only taking issue with your statement that it's the end of the story that they should win the next election. I'd like to see them doing it without giving up everything they might have stood for, which is not even an unlikely strategy. There are any number of people jockeying around them to effect a shift to the right as a grand game plan to:

    <publicly stated goal> Bring balance back into NZ politics
    <private goal> Permanently shift the political center towards their own opinions

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10655 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to WH,

    I can’t tell you how uninterested I am in debating matters of doctrinal purity

    I don’t see that the Labour Party is in any danger of falling into that trap.
    Q&A(9:43-13:55)

    Corin Dann: The issue of Iraq, Syria, ISIS, if you were leader of the Labour Party, would you send in troops to fight ISIS?

    Nanaia Mahuta: Look, now that we’ve got a seat on the UNSC I think that we can push harder for a UN sanctioned action in that space, it’s really important that we maintain our independence on foreign policy it’s also important that we uphold our track record in this area; humanitarian aid is something that we’ve been good on in the past as well as taking our role and our place in peacekeeping.

    Corin Dann: So no circumstances where you would not be part of a UN sanctioned group to go into Iraq?

    Nanaia Mahuta: I think a UN sanctioned action is something that will hold confidence but there are a number of questions to be responded to before New Zealanders will get their full vote on that and New Zealanders have to have confidence that any action we take in the international community is one based on our track record of humanitarian assistance and peacekeeping.

    Corin Dann: …we’ll go to Andrew Little would you send in troops, why not stop ISIS, Isn’t, I mean, everyone agrees don’t they that we should be stopping ISIS?

    Andrew Little: Yeah, and everyone wanted to stop Al Qaeda, and we’ve had, we’ve seen, in recent history, join with others, getting into conflicts, that we really don’t know what we’re getting into, they’ve spiralled out of control I think, the issue is not that we don’t play our role as a responsible international citizen, but that if we are going to put New Zealand citizens in our forces in harms way then there’s gotta be a jolly good case to do so, we haven’t heard that case. I don’t think we know what we’re getting into with ISIS it is, they are an organisation that spans borders

    Corin Dann: But if there was a case, if there was a strong case, if you get briefed, if you become leader and you’re briefed by John Key and he gives you the case,would you consider going in without a UN mandate, yes or no?

    Andrew Little: Well, I think the main thing is that there has to be a case for us to put combat troops on the ground, we’ve done so before…

    Corin Dann: And if there is a case, hypothetically you would do it?

    Andrew Little: Well, you know, you don’t rule anything out, but you want to make sure if we’re going to put New Zealand lives at risk, then we are doing so as a responsible international citizen.

    Corin Dann: Grant Robertson would you send in troops without a UN mandate if there was a case put to you if you were potentially leader?

    Grant Robertson: I, it’s highly unlikely, obviously we’ve got to hear the case, and see what…

    Corin Dann: That sounds suspiciously like John Key, ‘highly unlikely’…

    Grant Robertson: well no, what I’m saying is that in my view is that the Labour Party’s history points to a very clear stance, we only are involved in these sorts of conflicts where there is a UN mandate, my view is New Zealand is not in a situation now where we should be putting troops on the ground,we have to be open to the briefing, we haven’t had access to it, but the reality is, the experience in the middle east, by western forces going in, has not been good, New Zealand has a proud record of peace keeping, and of humanitarian assistance, if there is a UN mandate I believe that’s where our strengths lie, that’s where we should go, and at the moment I have seen no evidence to indicate this, that doesn’t mean that we stand by and say what ISIS does is ok, what they do is barbaric, and we cannot do that but we have to find the right place for New Zealand to support a UN mandated effort.

    Corin Dann: David Parker ‘barbaric’ why not stop them?

    David Parker: Ah it is barbaric it’s also hideously complex you know ISIS in part has its seeds in the failed war in Iraq and I was part of the Government that stayed out of that and I’m proud of that decision, it was a hard decision taken by Helen Clark and Phil Goff on our behalf or led by them. You know ISIS is armed largely from arms that were left over by the Americans after the Gulf war, gets money from other Gulf States, it’s got Turkey on the border refusing to engage because of conflict with the Kurds. these are very complex..

    Corin Dann: It might be complex but what’s wrong with you coming out and saying in principle, if there’s a case, you would stand up for beating these guys?

    David Parker: well you know we have to be satisfied that engaging makes the situation better not worse and we’re not yet satisfied that that is the case, though, I’ll take some convincing that it’s necessary, I agree with what Grant and others have said that you can’t describe these things in the abstract and we haven’t had the detailed briefing from the Government yet, but I’ll take some, it’s a wee bit different in Iraq compared with Syria because of course Iraq doesn’t need a UN resolution if they invite people in but even then you have to be satisfied that you have an exit strategy and that it’s gonna, if you’re gonna put people at risk you gotta be making things better.

    Aiming to win the election hinges on being able to form a formidable opposition and a credible alternative.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to mark taslov,

    Aiming to win the election hinges on being able to form a formidable opposition and a credible alternative.

    They should all be the Labour Leaders. What a sensible bunch we have there. Why cant we just all get along and lead as a group ? :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    Yeah, why not eh? I enjoyed the feeling of them together and the way they worked off one another. Ancient lore and arbitrary impositions:

    ...are made to be broken.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    Why cant we just all get along and lead as a group ?

    kumbayah

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19729 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    Well, I voted for Sepuloni. Does that count?

    Not on its own, no.

    I'd like to see them doing it without giving up everything they might have stood for

    I don't think it's helpful for you to present yourself as a defender of Labour's principles and to portray others as a threat to them.

    <publicly stated goal>
    <private goal>

    Whatever.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to WH,

    I don’t think it’s helpful for you to present yourself as a defender of Labour’s principles and to portray others as a threat to them.

    Helpful to who? It's my opinion. I don't pretend to be offering neutral advice as if I've been hired by some corporation to upgrade its image to improve market share. I'm a consumer and I'm saying what I want the company to make.

    Not on its own, no.

    Well, perhaps I didn't get the memo about what is required to have an opinion about Labour's influence over the future of the politics of my country.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10655 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    I just don't see how we move from here if one of the left wing parties isn't competing for the middle third of New Zealand's voters. I'm not saying a policy shift is required.

    If you want to suggest that competing to actually win elections is a betrayal of principle or a kind of false flag operation, I think you've got to anticipate a pretty pissed off response.

    Edited for tone.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I get that IM and Greens voters have ideas about what Labour should be.

    And there's plenty of places where only Labour people can express their opinions and vote etc on the party and the leader, and this isn't that space.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    And there's plenty of places where only Labour people can express their opinions and vote etc on the party and the leader, and this isn't that space.

    Do tell me more about the homogenous nature of your space.

    Since Nov 2006 • 797 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to WH,

    If you want to suggest that competing to actually win elections is a betrayal of principle or a kind of false flag operation, I think you’ve got to anticipate a pretty pissed off response.

    Sure. But you equally have to expect that putting up a win-at-all-costs suggestion is also going to get some disagreement.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10655 posts Report Reply

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