Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: The Demon E-Word

177 Responses

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  • Nat Torkington,

    I've missed the last ten years of political discourse in this country. Could you remind me why I'm supposed to care what John Minto thinks?

    Ti Point • Since Nov 2006 • 100 posts Report Reply

  • barnaclebarnes,

    "entrepreneurial" - sign of the devil. All it is going to take is one leftish writer to actually get of their arse, start a website of like minded people, sell ads on it and we are all ruined. I mean people actually making money from their ideas and their passion. Who would want kiwis to do _that_?

    Now where did I leave that bit of fencing wire....

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 90 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    All it is going to take is one leftish writer to actually get of their arse, start a website of like minded people, sell ads on it and we are all ruined.

    You mean it's my fault? Damn.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks,

    It's always your fault Russell.

    But is the curriculum, through the solitary inclusion of the E-word, teaching our children to become exploiters? Not unless you think they shouldn't ever aspire to having and pursuing their own ideas;
    And not unless you think the education system won't teach kids about reading things in context.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • merc,

    It certainly puts Mr Minto's ideas in perspective. I mean, just how has he made a living all these years? And if all the people are protected from the E word, won't they be enslaved by the M word?

    Since Dec 2006 • 2471 posts Report Reply

  • David Hamilton,

    Entrepreneurial has a specific meaning which is running a business to make a profit.

    This is where he falls over for me. Arbitrarily defining a word to suit your argument just seems weak. Dictionary.com has a slightly different skew:

    entrepreneur - a person who organizes and manages any enterprise, esp. a business, usually with considerable initiative and risk.

    For me it's about seeing an opportunity or need and meeting it with ingenuity, enthusiasm and creativity. Part of what being a New Zealander is all about. I like to think that we are an entrepreneurial country, and have no problem with our curriculum reflecting that.

    Hamiltron • Since Nov 2006 • 111 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks,

    ...further to my post above...

    And not if you realise words generally have narrow and a wider meanings. You can tell which is intended through judging the afformentioned context. Minto appears to struggle with that last part.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Stevens,

    It does seem a bizarre over-reaction on Minto's part to the word. I can think of entrepreneurs in the NGO sector who do incredible work, off their own bat and independently. In fact, I think Minto could be called an entrepreneur in some ways.

    But education curricula always upset people. This has pissed off the left and the right - is that a good sign? ;-)

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 230 posts Report Reply

  • Dave Waugh,

    We worked on the curriculum project at my work and having read all it's various incarnations as it was developed I must say I have been well impressed by it's vision and scope.
    It's a really well thought out document that I'd be happy to have my kids educated by.

    Quality of delivery however will be the problem with it.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 98 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I guess it kinda matters what sweeping words are used in some sort of 'Vision' section of a document - sweeping visionaries. Most people just want to find out what actual stuff their kids are actually going to be taught, not what the vision is.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    __Entrepreneurial has a specific meaning which is running a business to make a profit.__

    This is where he falls over for me.

    Agreed - I specifically researched the subject in postgrad study and while there is not a widely agreed definition, I'm confident the consensus would be that it's not that.
    Entrepreneurialism is better defined as a co-ordinator of disparate resources - and that's a brilliant thing to be teaching our kids. Yes there is often an inferred profit intent behind it in the few economic takes on the subject but there's plenty of research into entrepreneurialism in NGO, not for profits, etc...

    (By the way that dictionary.com definition has at least a couple of flaws in it from an anal academic perspective too)

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    I thought that Minto and the cronies would love this. It looks like the way forward to a knowledge economy but not as we know it. It is full of the same aspirational BS that has failed us for the last 30-40 years, and in that regard they proably did all the "consultation"* and then copied it straight off a 1970s bubblegum wrapper anyway.

    "learn how to learn", "dont remeber, just derive", "problem solving skills are better than memory", "method is more important than fact", "active learning" - all this BS I can remember was being held up as the way forward when I was at school in the early 70s. How long do governments need to stick to failed initives before they given it up.

    * consultation = spamming your own website with pdfs by your own yay sayers asking you to change the wording of paragraph 1.3.2.4.5 from "to" to "for".

    It must give the government a warm feeling knowing that they have at least 10000 yes persons/organisations.

    Luckily for us, from my experience the responsible teachers just get on with the job of teaching the kids well in spite of all this expensive glossy BS.

    The other thing NZ needs to get over is this BS that "only an academic carreer is success". The education system is highly slanted towards the "academic" rather than the "practical" because its cheaper and easier for the teachers.

    Finally,

    Unit Std 1.1.1 The last thing
    Unit Std 1.1.2 we needed
    Unit Std 1.1.3 was
    Unit Std 1.1.4 another
    Unit Std 1.1.4a navel gazing
    Unit Std 1.2.1 education
    Unit Std 1.2.2 review.

    However, obviously the "full employment" directive from on high necessitated it.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    It's a joke to get so bitter. If they'd said we'd like our kids to be musical and artistic, no one would give a shit. Personally I didn't and wouldn't study music, it not being an interest of mine, and I failed art. I didn't feel oppressed that my school pushed those subjects particularly hard - I just ignored them.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    consultation = spamming your own website with pdfs by your own yay sayers asking you to change the wording of paragraph 1.3.2.4.5 from "to" to "for".

    That's total BS. As a parent, I was approached for consultation; all parents were (or should have been if their schools were doing their job). The website did a good job of making the process as open as possible as it unfolded.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    "learn how to learn", "dont remeber, just derive", "problem solving skills are better than memory", "method is more important than fact", "active learning"

    Heh, I found those pearls of wisdom especially useless in foreign language classes.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Andy Milne,

    But is the curriculum, through the solitary inclusion of the E-word, teaching our children to become exploiters? Not unless you think they shouldn't ever aspire to having and pursuing their own ideas;

    And not unless you think the education system won't teach kids about reading things in context.

    Course it won't! The education system's all about producing docile call-centre fodder. I thought everyone knew that?

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 59 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    John's jumping at shadows frankly (and last count QPEC would struggle to fill a small lounge room with its 'members').

    The curriculum may conceivable consist of millions and millions of words, each of which might give rise to some personal offence, but Minto sees something sinister in one word because of some supposed association with business. He sees business as a dirty word and wants us to also - who's then trying to skew the curriculum to a narrow world view? Should kids only learn about the agrarian economies of pre-industrial society? FFS, I hope my kids read the classics, are bored by trigonometry, develop religious tolerance, play a dozen sports, develop inquiring minds and write appalling haiku as well as develop an appreciation for the role of commerce.

    Sorry John, but unless you develop a more sophisticated approach to advocacy, don't expect anyone to take you seriouesly.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Munro,

    Our daughter attends Unlimited Paenga Tawhiti school
    in Christchurch and went to Discovery primary before that. These are the schools set up largely by former mayor Vicki Buck which essentially put the onus on the learner to get on with their own learning and the school environment, teachers, resources etc. focus on assisting the learner to achieve their goals.

    One of the values of the school is:
    ‘Students are exposed to entrepreneurial thinking and are supported in undertaking entrepreneurial ventures”.

    It is not the primary goal of the school but it is part of a very broadminded and outward looking attitude. Frankly I think most kids would kill to be in this sort of environment. School is actually fun believe it or not.
    Our daughter is a self-sufficient learner, working on her own programme in her own time. Her entrepreneurial skills are perhaps yet to be completely revealed but her old man lives in hope that they may flower and he be the benefit of them in his dotage.

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 418 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    KevinHicks,

    How has the system failed us precisely? By most measures, NZ schools are doing well - international measures of literacy, numeracy as well as completion and attainment rates are relatively high and improving.

    Also, although I agree the focus can be too heavily skewed towards traditional academic pathways, since 1999 the funding for vocational training has tripled. Plus there's been Modern Apprenticeships and Gateway initiatives to encourage kids into both trade and non-trade training from senior secondary.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    Not unless you think they shouldn't ever aspire to having and pursuing their own ideas;

    We can safely discount the possibility of John Minto wishing to see any ideas (other than his own) pursued.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • Aaron Dick,

    From the stuff I'm learning at the mo (which is about how to be a teacher) we are failing in that our lowest studetns are falling further behind our best performing students.

    And, Kevin Hicks, special mention was made of the fact that trades are very worthwhile careers and earn well and shuffling our work to help provide students with that path alongside a well exercised brain, instead of assuming that non-academics should be left to do that as a second option.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 14 posts Report Reply

  • Ramsey Margolis,

    Okay, let's start with a disclosure: I work for the NZ Cooperatives Association.

    Entrepreneurship is a vital part of every successful co-op in this country. What John MInto appears not to be aware of is that co-ops exist to provide benefits to their members according to their participation. So when a co-op makes a surplus at the end of the year, it will be distributed to members according to the extent they've transacted with it.

    Whether it's a purchasing co-op, a marketing co-op, or any other kind, ask any co-op member if they'd like their cooperative run by entreprenurially minded people and I've no doubt they give you a resounding "Yes!". It's in their benefit.

    In my year working here what I've seen is how little cooperatives are understood. That's such a shame.

    Wellington Region • Since Nov 2006 • 2 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    From the stuff I'm learning at the mo (which is about how to be a teacher) we are failing in that our lowest studetns are falling further behind our best performing students.

    That's precisely the challenge. Our best students are among the best in the world -- but there's a group at the other end the scale being left behind.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    As a parent and a university educator all I heard about it was the someone got their knckers in a twist because the treaty was removed.

    I must keep my ear to the ground better because this aspirational BS may be the way forward if we are to become a retirement village for wealthy retirees who have made their money overseas. But it is not the way to move towards a clean lean green sustainable economy and more self sufficient country where we can afford the costs of the first world health, education and social systems we all seem to want.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Our daughter attends Unlimited Paenga Tawhiti school
    in Christchurch and went to Discovery primary before that.

    I'm very much hoping to get my son to go to Unlimited year after next. He wants to go to Riccarton like all his friends, but I look at what Unlimited offers in comparison with a traditional high school and I get all excited.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

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