Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Testify!

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  • Mat Wiseman,

    Hell yeah!

    Who would have thought McMillan still had that left in him? Unbelievable.

    Since Dec 2006 • 8 posts Report Reply

  • David Slack,

    Not to take anything away from what was by any definition something close to rapture, but: How many religious leaders in an act of ascension would feel the need to wear a box?

    Devonport • Since Nov 2006 • 599 posts Report Reply

  • Span .,

    Quite possibly more than you would ever suspect David.

    Shudder.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 112 posts Report Reply

  • James Littlewood,

    Tee hee - the box the box, the protective armor, the timber weapon ... all makes him look more like a spiritual terrorist leader.

    WTF is the Herald on?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 7 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    it's always when you don't go to the pub that they win... probably a photo of the year though. will discuss all this sports more on the podcast

    as for secularism, i think christians sometimes need to be reminded that the separation of church and state was put in place to stop christians being persecuted... by other christians.

    the rule of law basically says that the tamaki's of this world don't get to call the shots. the majority does, via parliament, and "regulated" by the courts (to put it in plain english).

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2042 posts Report Reply

  • Nais,

    Quite liked Clay Nelson's article wonder if George and friends have seen the parallel obsessions between fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims? Fundamentalist anything has me running for the hills........

    WOW, way to go Black Caps!

    Auckland • Since Dec 2006 • 22 posts Report Reply

  • Ben Austin,

    Hm, well the way I read it, Tamaki's expressed desire to take over is more seditious than treasonous, since treason seems to need a military component of some kind.

    Crimes Act 1961 - 81 Seditious offences defined

    (1)A seditious intention is an intention—

    (a)To bring into hatred or contempt, or to excite disaffection against, Her Majesty, or the Government of New Zealand, or the administration of justice; or

    (b)To incite the public or any persons or any class of persons to attempt to procure otherwise than by lawful means the alteration of any matter affecting the Constitution, laws, or Government of New Zealand; or

    (c)To incite, procure, or encourage violence, lawlessness, or disorder; or

    (d)To incite, procure, or encourage the commission of any offence that is prejudicial to the public safety or to the maintenance of public order; or

    (e)To excite such hostility or ill will between different classes of persons as may endanger the public safety.

    London • Since Nov 2006 • 1025 posts Report Reply

  • anjum rahman,

    having been at the interfaith forum in question, i have to disagree with the fundy post's belief that there was a great falling out between religious groups. in fact, there was a great agreement, and i have to commend both joris and paul morris for running the diversity statement session and getting a braod sense of agreement. destiny church were there, as were vision & the exclusive brethren but they only added up to about 10 participants out of 100. everyone had the opportunity to have their say, there was no nastiness, no antagonism, and no great falling out. instead there was general consensus with a minority having a dissenting view.

    during breaks, the exclusive brethren & vision certainly spent a lot of time talking to everyone else from a variety of faiths - which is the whole purpose of interfaith ie to get people with deep differences talking to each other. unfortunately the destiny delegation weren't so much in the spirit of things, but they were never anything but polite.

    i would have like atheists to be much more involved in the discussions - i did invite russell to come along, but he was obviously busy with other things. i hope that we get more of an input from the rationalists/atheists etc in future forums, because they have an important contribution to make.

    another point of clarification: the diversity statement does not request religious instruction. what it requests is teaching people about the various religions in the world - which is already done successfully in all schools in uk and some schools in nz. the purpose being that people don't talk to each other from positions of ignorance/misinformation. whether or not that's a good thing is a matter to be debated, but let's at least debate the right thing. it certainly isn't about proselytising, but is similar to how kids currently learn about a variety of cultures in social studies.

    this is better than the current situation where schools officially close for an hour (during the school day) and have someone come in and speak to the whole school on religious matters. if we start to investigate what sorts of people are having access to our kids during this official closure and what exactly they are teaching, we might prefer something different. kids don't have to sit through these sessions of course. they can have the privilege of feeling like social outcasts by sitting in a separate classroom and doing not much at all.

    anyway, we do need to be having these debates and not just over the internet. and when we do have them, it's also important that all points of view are present and have the opportunity to express themselves. in that sense, this forum was definitely a success.

    hamilton • Since Nov 2006 • 130 posts Report Reply

  • Greg Dawson,

    (e)To excite such hostility or ill will between different classes of persons as may endanger the public safety.

    Wow. If the sedition laws weren't almost entirely abused for evil purposes, they might almost be worth keeping just for that clause.

    The number of people liable over the last few years of political campaigning would be enormous.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 294 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    And the way I read it, Tamaki's expressed desire is democratic. However fanciful, there's no way his statements are seditious.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3207 posts Report Reply

  • Adrian Wills,

    And why does it seem to take Brian Tamaki so much effort to close his eyes compared to everyone else? Almost as if he's struggling to believe the s### he's shovelling. See pic.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1501156&objectid=10424395

    Parnell, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    i would have like atheists to be much more involved in the discussions - i did invite russell to come along, but he was obviously busy with other things.

    That's not a little snippiness is it Anjum?

    I had an income to try and earn and a can't-handle-school child to look after on Monday. As noted, I also had a prior evening appointment with the sodomites.

    But yeah, Paul's opinions on the forum itself are his own. I just get uppity when the profoundly intolerant complain about intolerance.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And the way I read it, Tamaki's expressed desire is democratic. However fanciful, there's no way his statements are seditious.

    Really? A quote from the linked story:

    Tamaki told his followers that New Zealand's government will soon be upon the shoulders of Jesus Christ.

    "It's a government that shall govern this nation that is not like the governments of this world. It's not a dictatorship, it's not a democracy, it's a theocracy."

    I'm not taking him particularly seriously, but I'm not sure his desire is democratic.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    May I just say a big thanks to Anjum for that first-person account, and in particular a big "hear hear" to this:

    this is better than the current situation where schools officially close for an hour (during the school day) and have someone come in and speak to the whole school on religious matters. if we start to investigate what sorts of people are having access to our kids during this official closure and what exactly they are teaching, we might prefer something different. kids don't have to sit through these sessions of course. they can have the privilege of feeling like social outcasts by sitting in a separate classroom and doing not much at all.

    The covert wink-and-nod sanction of religious instruction in our ostensibly secular schools is a particular pet irritant for me.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    this is better than the current situation where schools officially close for an hour (during the school day) and have someone come in and speak to the whole school on religious matters. if we start to investigate what sorts of people are having access to our kids during this official closure and what exactly they are teaching, we might prefer something different. kids don't have to sit through these sessions of course. they can have the privilege of feeling like social outcasts by sitting in a separate classroom and doing not much at all.

    I'm with you there. I've heard some horror stories along those lines, with school authorities really not thinking about what's going on on their property. If Nat Torkington's reading, he might be inclined to tell one such ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • anjum rahman,

    "That's not a little snippiness is it Anjum?"

    snippiness?? i hope you didn't think i was implying that the other things you were busy with were less important, cos i wasn't. was just trying to point out that we did want to be inclusive of everyone, even if we weren't successful this time around...

    hamilton • Since Nov 2006 • 130 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    snippiness?? i hope you didn't think i was implying that the other things you were busy with were less important, cos i wasn't. was just trying to point out that we did want to be inclusive of everyone, even if we weren't successful this time around...

    Fair enough. I meant to put a smiley in there ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    I've heard some horror stories along those lines, with school authorities really not thinking about what's going on on their property.

    I wonder sometimes if there's a secular parent left who doesn't have a horror story about trying to get their kids a state secular education. And it's not just the kids that shut for 'religious education' while packing the non-conformists off to scrape gum off desks that are the problem. It's the in-class stuff, like the Chch school I could name that had an "Easter quiz", entirely Bible-based, in class, and gave chocolate to the kids who got the answers right.

    I'd love to see the kind of actual religious education anjum is talking about, but not LIKE culture in social studies, AS culture in social studies.

    And if we don't have a state religion, can we get rid of the Parliamentary Prayer?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Llewellyn,

    But back to the cricket .......

    Aside from the photo in the link, last nights game delivered a couple of other memorable images, the 'see, its easy' look on Gillespies face as he chopped and edged 16 off one crucial over, and by far the most satisfying image of the cricket season, the "I've just eaten some awful tasting humble pie" by John 'Give us a challenge' Buchanan as he saw an unlosable game slipping away.....

    A mastercard ad in waiting .......

    Mt Albert • Since Nov 2006 • 399 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Easterbrook,

    Way back in my primary school days, our one hour per week of "Bible" was delivered by kindly old men who had seen action in World War 2, worked as missionaries later in life, and who had a real love of sharing the morally-grounding lessons to be learnt in Bible stories.

    I wonder who does it now? I worry that it's the same kind of aggressively missionary people who attend churches more concerned with condemning 'wrong' (and sucking in wealth) than teaching 'right'; the ones who are right now flooding university campuses during Orientation and 'making friends' with slightly bewildered first years.

    And for the record, the one family at our small country school who sat out those lessons were Brethren, but the non-Exclusive variety that don't get much press.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 262 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Morrison,

    I was impressed with anjum's account of the interfaith forum. If there's any possibility of talking reason (or should that be "faith") into groups such as the EBs then it will most likely come from fellow believers.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I wonder sometimes if there's a secular parent left who doesn't have a horror story about trying to get their kids a state secular education.

    We haven't really had a bad experience, although the songbook at intermediate irked me a bit.

    I have a policy of not coaching my kids either way, letting them come to their own conclusions, and when they're obliged to sing about being on their way to Heaven twice a week I feel like the school is overstepping its bounds.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Aside from the photo in the link, last nights game delivered a couple of other memorable images, the 'see, its easy' look on Gillespies face as he chopped and edged 16 off one crucial over,

    The best bit there was McCullum leaning on his bat at the other end with a quizzical grin on his face after Gillespie finished the over by bludgeoning Watson's last delivery for four past mid-off. Heh.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    It's not just secular parents, Emma. Any non-Protestant -- Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Hindu -- in a state school is potentially on-side with this one.

    There is always a vocal and pushy minority who stack the school board in order to get it set up and maintained, and then residual guilt from the former Christians and inertia ensure it's hard to get rid of.

    When I was at intermediate school in Hamilton (80-81) the RI guy was the local Baptist minister. My daughter's school used some local evangelical guy, not sure what denomination.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Ben Austin,

    We had a succession of religious instructors come to my primary school, ranging from mainstream churches to the newer churches. I think we all stopped taking it seriously when one of them gave us a list of bands affiliated or inspired by Satan.

    London • Since Nov 2006 • 1025 posts Report Reply

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