Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Panic

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  • InternationalObserver,

    So if I went round the city topping illegal parkers, that ain't murder?

    Not if you could prove you didn't intend to kill them. Murder by and large requires intent. The 50y.o. in Manurewa will need to reasonably explain why he brought the knife with him, if not to stab the tagger.

    Re: the media reporting, I recall the sister of the 50y.o. calling it a tragedy and sending her condolences to the family of the 15y.o. killed. The family of the 15y.o. have made it clear "he was a good boy" and the media haven't portrayed him as otherwise (other than that he was also a tagger).

    Re: topping illegal parkers, the jury might not have much sympathy for you if you took it upon yourself to walk the streets giving illegal parkers a good thumping and then one such thumping results in death. You might get some sympathy from a jury if every morning when you tried to leave for work you found someone had parked across your driveway to get some cigarettes from the Dairy next door. Every day a different driver but always with the same excuse ("chill out, I was only a minute or two") and the council/police were indifferent to your complaints. So one day you 'snap' (to presume the defence strategy) and give the next person parked over your driveway a good thumping. Resulting in death.

    Death is death, it's always horrible, and undeserved. (And lets not digress into debate over "what if you had the chance to kill Hitler?")

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Munro,

    Yup, amazing that the same company employs Garth George.

    Rich, I was wandering around in a bit more of the Independent and found this article by John Lichfield.

    Rogue trader tried to hide €1bn winnings

    A series of revelations over the weekend give bizarre, and intriguing, new insight into the trader's alleged activities. His former bosses, at Société Générale, France's second largest bank, say that M. Kerviel had, over a period of many months in 2007, bet €50bn in a clandestine computer game of his own invention.
    They originally described his winnings as "modest" but evidence which emerged in Germany at the weekend suggests that, by the end of 2007, he may have earned as much as €1bn on secret, undeclared trading late into the night.
    Instead of finding some way to cash in, and abscond, with the money, he set out two weeks ago to lose his winnings – mostly, it appears, by deliberately foolhardy speculation on the German DAX shares index. His intention was to return his winning position to "neutral" and cover up his activities.
    The bank's president, Daniel Bouton, said on Saturday that M. Kerviel's deliberate attempt to "take losing positions" had been too successful – leaving him with a €1.4bn loss on 18 January. This turned into a €4.9bn loss – the largest ever by a single trader – when SocGen tried to dump his trades as European markets crashed a week ago.

    I guess I’d sort of got the idea from other reports that he had trumped Nick Leeson by another unreal amount but I hadn’t realised the true scale of his trading, (roughly New Zealand’s annual GDP I think), or the fact his system was working very well and it only failed as he tried to hide it, by deliberately ‘losing’ the billion euros he had made for the bank – not himself.
    Neat summary of an incredible story. Almost defies belief.

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 418 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    They originally described his winnings as "modest" but evidence which emerged in Germany at the weekend suggests that, by the end of 2007, he may have earned as much as €1bn on secret, undeclared trading late into the night.
    Instead of finding some way to cash in, and abscond, with the money, he set out two weeks ago to lose his winnings – mostly, it appears, by deliberately foolhardy speculation on the German DAX shares index. His intention was to return his winning position to "neutral" and cover up his activities.

    That's a way to take a rescueable position and deliberately wipe it out.

    Employee: Hey boss, I've been illegally trading late at night with billions of dollars!
    Employer: You what?
    Employee: And I made a billion dollars for you!
    Employer: Er... well that's good.
    Employee: But I didn't want to own up to it so I deliberately lost it all. And overshot a little. Or maybe a lot.
    Employer: Y'know, smart illegality is one thing, but when you add stupid to it...

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    (And lets not digress into debate over "what if you had the chance to kill Hitler?")

    I prefer to frame it on less loaded ground (at least, if you're not a sci-fi geek): Did The Doctor make the right decision in __Genesis of the Daleks? :)

    Equally pointless, but the fictional frame makes it a hell of a lot less fraught.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Mad props for Amy, that was hysterical.

    I thought about responding in kind, but I lack the education.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Spinner,

    Equally pointless, but the fictional frame makes it a hell of a lot less fraught.

    why pointless......???

    surely challenging absolutist philosophical statements such as "Death is death, it's always horrible, and undeserved." is both desirable and frequently done by using extreme examples to test their legitimacy???

    the chance to prevent the death of millions by the death of one is surely a legitimate angle to investigate with regards to ethics and morals????

    death is often deserved, and desired (youth in asia etc)......tho i am assuming you were referring to murder as opposed to death itself....

    Remmers • Since Jul 2007 • 24 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Violence is wrong, whether provoked or otherwise. The *only* exception is the unavoidable need to defend yourself or anothers person.

    One reason why NZ has more of an issue with violence than other countries is that this isn't widely accepted (how many times have I heard that somebody deserved, or would deserve, a bashing for some act).

    The question of responsibility for consequences, rather than actions, is a difficult one. I tend to think that our legal system has tended to far towards punishing people for what their actions resulted in rather than for the actual act.

    However, I would argue that if someone (hypothetically) uses a knife on another person, then they should reasonably expect to kill them, and consequently, the offence is murder.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    why pointless......???

    Um, I meant pointless in the sense that I was born twenty seven years to the day after Adolf Hitler committed suicide. If my mother is a realiable informant, I was more focused for the next couple of years on making sure that if I wasn't going to sleep nobody else within earshot was going to either.

    And while I can fan-wank sci-fi with the best, the obstinate fact is that The Daleks and the genocidal (but way hawt) humano-Cylons of Battlestar Galactica aren't real. Adolf Hitler was.I find it a little more comfortable conducting thought experiments like "is genocide ever morally justifiable" within the frame of a fiction.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    I would argue that if someone (hypothetically) uses a knife on another person, then they should reasonably expect to kill them, and consequently, the offence is murder.

    I'd agree, but I'd also posit that one could bring a knife thinking it would be useful to scare off some young punk kids tagging your wall. The problem is that today's kids aren't so easily intimidated, but people haven't woken up to that. So you've got old codgers thinking they could sort out the problem just by giving these kids a clip round the ear. Or a bit of military disciplne.

    i am assuming you were referring to murder as opposed to death itself....

    kind of, but all death is always hard on those left behind. Even Saddam was mourned.

    the chance to prevent the death of millions by the death of one is surely a legitimate angle to investigate with regards to ethics and morals????

    Yes, and George W Bush would be proud to have you on his debating team. Dubya invaded Iraq with all the good intentions in the world (no, I don't believe it either but lets accept it for the sake of argument) but the outcome was still bad. Sci-Fi (to rope in Craig) is littered with Time Travel stories about changing the past to improve the future, but the result is always a different kind of bad.

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    The Onion satirised the 'suicidegirls' thing over two years ago.

    http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42370

    Which makes the harold/sun/whatever story look even more pathetic than it already does.

    Personally, I stopped taking The Harold seriously as a news publication when it chose to illustrate a story about the melting artic icecaps (the arctic icecaps not being a region known for including any solid ground) with a picture of some snowy cliffs.

    To be fair, I suppose it's fine as long as you treat it as if you were getting your news txted to you by an over-excited teenager: "OMG knivez like weapon of choice for teenz. LOLZ"

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Munro,

    Employee: But I didn't want to own up to it so I deliberately lost it all. And overshot a little. Or maybe a lot.

    Amazingly, from what I can understand of this, he actually only overshot a lttle - he was good at this game - it was the bank that lost a lot when it liquidated his positions.

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 418 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    Amazingly, from what I can understand of this, he actually only overshot a lttle - he was good at this game - it was the bank that lost a lot when it liquidated his positions.

    I remember last century when I guy I know was managing a record shop (part of a chain). He'd been promoted at a very young age to 'manager', gaining all of the long hours and stress, with none of the benefits of a higher salary. A common employer tactic of the day, matched by a common employee tactic: skimming off the till. 10 months later the cops are called in and he's up for 50k worth of theft as a servant.
    I asked him what he did with the 50k and he said he didn't know, he had nothing to show for it. I asked him 'so you were taking an extra grand a week for your self?' and he said 'no way, maybe fifty or a hundred a week tops'.
    I soon discovered why a young guy with very poor maths skills was promoted to running the store. He was the fall guy.

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Personally, I stopped taking The Harold seriously as a news publication when it chose to illustrate a story about the melting artic icecaps (the arctic icecaps not being a region known for including any solid ground) with a picture of some snowy cliffs.

    Stuff. Story - women look at pronz too. Picture - skanky under-dressed woman lying on a couch going 'here's my tits'.

    Yes. That's what we're looking at. Still, I guess some portion of their readership would be terrified that a picture of an under-dressed man would give them teh gayz.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    where's the link Emma? I'd be interested to see what you consider skanky. My wife made a similar comment about some woman on Tim Gunn, and I'd been musing to myself 'she looks alright'.

    Men. meh!

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Geoff Lealand,

    The link to the Guardian Weekly article about the delights of Salford (not!) can be found at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2235208,00.html

    I couldn't figure what "Spinner from Remmers" (above) is on about. Could he/she please explain.

    Screen & Media Studies, U… • Since Oct 2007 • 2562 posts Report Reply

  • Bob Munro,

    I soon discovered why a young guy with very poor maths skills was promoted to running the store. He was the fall guy.

    Exactly.

    From The Guardian

    The scandal at Société Générale took a dramatic new turn today when a lawyer acting for 100 small shareholders said he was suing the French bank, accusing it of insider trading and market manipulation.

    The bank's woes deepened when Jérôme Kerviel, the "lone" rogue trader behind its €4.9bn (£3.6bn) losses, accused colleagues of similarly trading beyond their limits - and prosecutors said SocGen had been alerted by the Eurex derivatives market to the scale of his positions as long ago as November last year.

    Christchurch • Since Aug 2007 • 418 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    where's the link Emma? I'd be interested to see what you consider skanky

    You ask, I deliver.

    It's her eyes. 'Skanky' is of course a terrible thing to say about another woman. I shouldn't do it. She could well have a degree in maths and another in astrophysics for all I know.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • InternationalObserver,

    'Skanky' is of course a terrible thing to say about another woman. I shouldn't do it. She could well have a degree in maths and another in astrophysics for all I know.

    Yeah, they were always the skankiest b1tches at Uni when I was an Engineering Student trying to concentrate on my studies. The Astrophysicists were by far the worst -- they made the Mathematicians look like Mormons.
    I was gonna say Nuns, but all we know how hot they can be.

    Since Jun 2007 • 909 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    where's the link Emma? I'd be interested to see what you consider skanky

    Heh. Cough cough. Vitally important research involving looking at attractive 'skanky' women? Suuuurre.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    they made the Mathematicians look like Mormons.

    These Mormons?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Joanna,

    Bruce Hoult informs me that Olivia Suicide (aka Olivia Ball), the site's former programming lead (and model) is ... ta-da! -- a New Zealander. Kiwi pride.

    Psst, Russell, you'd get more 'down with the kids' points if you weren't many years behind with last names!

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 746 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    This backgrounder http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/0801/Backgrounder.pdf might make the sort of the Key is talking about clearer.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Yes. That's what we're looking at. Still, I guess some portion of their readership would be terrified that a picture of an under-dressed man would give them teh gayz.

    I guess you haven't seen the lovely shot of Mark 'Borat' Hansen 'in character' DPF (the naughty little chap) just had to share. Gave me teh hetz -- and a sensation not felt since I last though half a bottle of gin and three day-old fish pie wouldn't end in disaster. (FYI: It is one hell of a way to lose weight, if you're of a masochistic bent.)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Heather Gaye,

    RE: skanky woman link - what the heck is a "past-time"?

    Morningside • Since Nov 2006 • 533 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Emma, it was more the "factual inaccuracy that a resonably clued-up 11-year old would have spotted slap bang in the middle of the front frickin' page" that was the final nail in the coffin for my relationship with the Herald. Which came on top of continuous and large helpings of:

    1) indifferent to downright embarrasing subbing (semi-colons consistently used in place of apostrophes, for example),

    2) basic factual inaccuracies (the specific one I refer to being a whopper), and

    3) a complete lack of coherent, well-argued, in-depth analysis of the type I can get for free on Public Address, but an overdose of rambling, shallow, verging-on-the-wingnut witterings.

    Oh, and the main story on pg 3 of the last herald on sunday. The economy? No. Trouble in Kenya? No. Ed Hilary? No.

    But Nicky Watson's missing dog on the other hand.....

    The "woman-with-not-many-clothes-on-used-to-illustrate-an-only tangentially-related-story" is not at all an uncommon one, and isn't isolated to NZ. Russell linked to a 'daily show' a year or so ago that showed a Florida news station running a story on a sex attacker preying on prostitues in Florida. The footage used to illustrate the story was stock footage of women in bikinis walking on the beach....

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

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