Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Narcissists and bullies

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  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Miche Campbell,

    There is an unspoken rule in society that women are the keepers of public morality, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that some of the girls involved, as well as their friends, see it as Their Job (however subconsciously) to enforce societal norms about what happened.

    The time-honoured dual roles.

    Elsewhere the Herald can't contain its excitement over the vigilanre "dads" and the prospect of returning to that good old day when rape was a crime against property.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    Same problem different situation - This quote in a Yahoo News Article this morning:

    "The biggest problem is that the police don't take action until child victims file reports, but children almost never report these crimes," said head of campaigns Hans Guyt.

    http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/19684131/virtual-filipina-girl-identifies-1000-webcam-sex-tourists/

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • Miche Campbell,

    And they're just talking on National Radio about a second group related to this one.

    Dunedin • Since Feb 2011 • 79 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Okay, I’ll link to it. It’s here.

    Feel free to leave a comment letting Radio Live know what you think.

    Yes they closed the comments ( why?) but reading them all gives me more hope, a resounding WTF are these radio guys thinking.

    Northland • Since Nov 2006 • 510 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to stephen clover,

    Do teenagers understand these technicalities?

    Stephen: Please don't take this the wrong way, but that's rape culture in a single word. And, frankly, as a middle-aged man who not that long ago was a teenager with a semi-permanent erection, I find it repugnant to be told in any way, shape, or form rape is just something teenage men just do. Because it's not.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Miche Campbell,

    And they’re just talking on National Radio about a second group related to this one.

    The story's a couple of days out of date. The so-called "Mt Albert chapter" page was removed by Facebook, on complaint, on Monday I think. I think it predates the story breaking in the news.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22825 posts Report Reply

  • EliotBlennerhassett,

    The police don't seem to need a complainant when they go out to gather evidence of crimes, from the trivial - deploying speed cameras to the serious - putting officers undercover into gang situations to gather evidence of drug, arms or other crimes to the farcical sending a swat team and helicopters to arrest 'copyright violators'

    "Yeah, we've been watching this gang's facebook page for a couple of years now, waiting for them to publish some evidence."

    And apart from prosecuting criminals, where is the aspect of protecting the public safety crime or not in the police response?

    Christhcurch • Since Jan 2010 • 15 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Lisa_J,

    Lisa, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I can totally understand why survivors choose not to put themselves through such a horrendous experience. It's beyond heroic.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3891 posts Report Reply

  • Brent Jackson,

    It seems to me that the police have lost sight of what their goal is. It is not to arrest criminals; it is not to maximise successful prosecutions; it is not to maximise the sentence of a successful prosecution; it is not to minimise wasted money on unsuccessful prosecutions; it is to minimise crime.

    Allowing these criminals to continue with their offending in the hope of being able to ping them with the most serious crime possible is repugnant. Why not arrest them on a lesser charge as soon as possible. Even if that lesser charge doesn’t hold up in court, then, if these teenagers have any chance of rehabilitation, narrowly avoiding a jail term might just be the wake up call they need.

    (Correct me if I’m wrong, but the police could arrest them for the more serious charges as well, but then drop them before court, just to worry them even more – or to perhaps get a plea bargain on the lesser charge).

    It appears as if the police are fixated on the idea of protecting society by locking criminals away for as long as possible, rather than trying to get law-breakers to change their behaviour.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 615 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite, in reply to Lilith __,

    Also, how can this WHOLE ARTICLE never use the R word?? Even once?

    Possibly to avoid triggering? That would be my generous interpretation.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to EliotBlennerhassett,

    The police don’t seem to need a complainant when they go out to gather evidence of crimes, from the trivial – deploying speed cameras to the serious – putting officers undercover into gang situations to gather evidence of drug, arms or other crimes to the farcical sending a swat team and helicopters to arrest ‘copyright violators’

    If the Roast Busters hailed from South Auckland, the boys in blue would probably have the AOS deployed in a flash. But the Roast Busters just happen to be well-connected. A bit too well-connected.

    The Daisy Coleman rape trial unfolding right now in Maryville, MO is just one case where connections have over-ridden the justice system.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5429 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler, in reply to Richard Aston,

    Yes they closed the comments ( why?) but reading them all gives me more hope, a resounding WTF are these radio guys thinking.

    Is it possible that Radio Love comments are moderated, and that these comments were the acceptable ones, and that comments were closed off after a large number of disgusting comments that couldn't be approved to be shown and that comments were shut down because the moderator decided he or she didn't want to read any more?

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3205 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Graeme Edgeler,

    Is it possible that Radio Love comments are moderated

    Heh. You said "Radio Love".

    The moderators were letting through some very strong comments, with swearing and even a suggestion that that the hosts were trying to cover their own past indiscretions, right up until the time the comments were closed.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22825 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler, in reply to Russell Brown,

    The moderators were letting through some very strong comments, with swearing and even a suggestion that that the hosts were trying to cover their own past indiscretions, right up until the time the comments were closed.

    Which just shows how offensive the comments they weren't letting through must have been!

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3205 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    According to the police the monitoring/inquiry, or lack thereof, has been ongoing since 2011. One of the persons of concern is a police officer's son.

    So, as a father what did this Police Officer do about his son's behaviour. I am making the assumption the police officer would have known and also that the police would have interviewed the two main protagonists and at least talked to their parents.

    To my mind there needs to be an inquiry into the Police response, or lack thereof – The whole thing is extremely wrong.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Graeme Edgeler,

    Which just shows how offensive the comments they weren’t letting through must have been!

    It was a blanket block. I made one that must have come in only a minute after they stopped it, which was much less offensive than some of the comments. I’d say they saw that it could go on all day (they were coming thick and fast), and it would be shocking for their reputation if 37 comments turned into 2000, all expressing outrage at the hosts.

    ETA: In the time it took me to write my two sentences (about a minute), then post and refresh the screen, another 20 comments had come in.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to DexterX,

    “The biggest problem is that the police don’t take action until child victims file reports, but children almost never report these crimes,”

    For kids apparently under 15, surely the Police should be acting in loco parentis - kids under that age can't be tried for many crimes (as I understand it) so why should alleged crimes against them be allowed to fall in limbo?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7943 posts Report Reply

  • Rageaholic, in reply to Brent Jackson,

    This is the other thing that is getting to me about this case: if the police had been monitoring them, did they do anything to try to stop anyone else from being assaulted? Even just letting the group know that the police are aware of what they are doing may have made them stop. A short sentance for a more minor conviction is a better outcome than more people being raped.

    Are there rules about the police having reason to believe that a person is going to harm someone and not stopping it?

    I haven't read every article about this case, so maybe I am way off base; but it sounds as if the police were "monitoring the situation" while letting the actual rapes continue.

    Eden • Since Nov 2010 • 20 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite, in reply to Rageaholic,

    Rape is not mere abduction or "theft", it is a crime of humiliation and personal destruction and the Facebook pages were part of that humiliation and a perpetuation of those crimes. In allowing the pages to remain active, the police were facilitating the continuation of the rapes.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Rageaholic,

    Even just letting the group know that the police are aware of what they are doing may have made them stop.

    They did interview some of the group, didn't they? One does not need to be particularly observant to notice that the police know what you're up to and might not be overly happy about it when one is sitting in a police station being interviewed about one's actions by police officers. And yet they didn't stop.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Rageaholic,

    Even just letting the group know that the police are aware of what they are doing may have made them stop.

    They did do that. The boys concerned were interviewed by the police and given warnings. They continued anyway. They're basically thumbing noses at the whole system. I'm not sure how much more power the police really have - Russell suggested that they could at least have had their phones and cameras searched for actual evidence, and if that is possible on the known evidence, then I'd agree it should have been done. It might have netted nothing, but then again, it might have led to a prosecution for sex with a person under 16, and maybe other charges relating to the taking of non-consenting explicit photos.

    The problem is really that these would be charges brought out of frustration about the inability to bring the more serious charges about which everyone really is very outraged. OK, sex with underage persons is illegal, but if they're willing, consenting, and the perpetrators were barely adults themselves, it's not going to be punishment fitting the crime. OTOH, the underage sex punishment does seem really harsh to me, were a 10 year sentence handed to a 16 year old having consenting sex with a 15 year old, so perhaps outside of the intention of the judicial system an appropriate punishment could be levied. And there would be a good chance of further rapes being hindered by all this. I just don't know if judges are allowed to think that way, though.

    So we come to the question of the witnesses then having to be compelled to testify. This can be a serious harm in itself, something the police have to consider.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10650 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to BenWilson,

    Ben, at least some of the girls concerned were semi-conscious. At any age, this is a condition in which it's not possible to consent.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3891 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston, in reply to Russell Brown,

    The moderators were letting through some very strong comments, with swearing and even a suggestion that that the hosts were trying to cover their own past indiscretions, right up until the time the comments were closed.

    Looks like Radio live are trying to balance out the JT and Willie stuff , I got asked to do an interview with Duncan Garner this avo . Looking at the role of older men in shaping the moral compass of younger men - I have strong views , they asked Celia Lashlie but she turned it down saying it was for men to talk about.

    It appears they are trying to brings some breadth and width into the debate or at least drag it out of the swamp.

    Northland • Since Nov 2006 • 510 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    I agree. And we must somehow effect a comprehensive culture change.

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 355 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Colin Gavaghan, who teaches criminal defence law but is an expert in emerging technology law, has gotten frustrated enough to blog on the topic today:

    ‘Roast Busters’ are criminals – and we don’t need new laws to make them so.

    OTOH, the underage sex punishment does seem really harsh to me, were a 10 year sentence handed to a 16 year old having consenting sex with a 15 year old, so perhaps outside of the intention of the judicial system an appropriate punishment could be levied.

    The police actively use discretion here, and won't charge if it's a healthy, consenting relationship involving two young people. If it's a 30 year old and a 14 year old however...

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

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