Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Misquote Unquote

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  • Malcolm,

    Very nice post Russell. I would be a little more sceptical about claims of Tibetan torture - the victims, likely criminals, are hardly going to say they deserved it (I know, nobody deserves it, but they are hardly likely to admit to being fairly caught and thus subject to the admittedely barbarous criminal code of the time).

    But more importantly, let me speak up for China. Yes, they still do some bad things, but it's nothing compared to Stalin, Mao, Hitler or the US Civil war. These are not intended to be trite comparisons. Remember Forsyth's "The Devil's Alternative"? When you are in charge of that much stuff (ie. the US govt.), you have to make nasty decisions such as who should die. Even our own PM is faced with decisions like whether to invade Ruatoki. Then imagine being China, with 1.3 billion, surrounded by other countries. What horrible alternatives would you have to choose between?

    It is amazing China manages to even govern itself. Yes, nasty stuff happens, like cultural genocide in Tibet, organ trade from executed prisoners and so on. But it could be so much worse. In a sense, I think the Chinese government, although imperfect, is close to the best possible outcome. They are even moving slowly towards democracy by trialling elections at local government level.

    I'm really concerned about some things in China, but I tell you what, I wouldn't want to walk a mile in Hu Jintao's moccasins.

    Since Apr 2007 • 69 posts Report Reply

  • linger,

    People are only half-joking when they refer to Tokyo as "the Eastern Capital".

    Eh? Isn't that exactly what "Tokyo" means in Japanese?
    (From comparison with the previous, more westerly, capital of Kyoto.)

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1944 posts Report Reply

  • Jill Reade,

    Russell said :How about Kiwibank promote itself on the basis that it offers better services and lower fees?

    Tom said : I am a nationalist and we need to stick up for ourselves & make our own luck in the world, if we don't then foreign corporates will shaft us quicker than you can say "economic colonialism".

    We don't need foreign nationals to shaft us when kiwibank is completely capable of doing it by themselves. Better services, lower fees? The cost of the latter is in the wages of the people providing the services. I think that most people delivering the services are employed by franchises. In my own experience franchise workers are paid at or near the minimum wage. This is several dollars an hour less than they would be paid working at a New Zealand Post Corporate shop, doing the same job but without having to have knowledge of stationery and books as well. The difference is that Corporate workers have union representation and award wages. Franchise staff may join the union (EPMU) but will still not be covered by the award. Franchise owners plead that they cannot pay as the corporate shops and indeed other banks do because of low transaction fees paid to them by Kiwibank. Some suspect the transactions are costing them. My understanding is that if they do not want to provide Kiwibank services then they also lose the Post franchise. Kiwibank may be able to undercut its competitors but it's by virtue of the Employment Contracts Act and the franchise sytem not by being smarter. Never mind the hokiness, the sheer hypocracy of their advertising really annoys me.

    Since Jun 2007 • 20 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    But more importantly, let me speak up for China. Yes, they still do some bad things, but it's nothing compared to Stalin, Mao, Hitler or the US Civil war.

    Well, I'm rather put in mind of this tart passage from Gore Vidal's essay 'Pink Triangle, Yellow Star':

    “In the German concentration camps, Jews wore yellow stars while homosexuals wore pink triangles. I was present when Christopher Isherwood tried to make this point to a young Jewish movie producer. “After all,” said Isherwood, “Hitler killed six hundred thousand homosexuals.” The young man was not impressed. “But Hitler killed six million Jews,” he said sternly. “What are you?” asked Isherwood. “In real estate?”

    I'd rather not take the Great Terror, the Cultural Revolution or the Nuremberg Laws as my baseline for civilized conduct. That's not setting the bar far too low, as carefully placing it at the bottom of the Mariana Trench. Hey perhaps we should have all STFU about apartheid, because, you know, it could have been so much worse. South Africa was a functioning democracy -- though one that was effectively a one-party state where the majority of the population was disenfranchised on the basis of race. The townships never turned into Konzentrationslager. Vile as apartheid was, it did not engage in the calculated and systematic enslavement and extermination of racial, religious and political undesirables.

    Something, I'm sure, millions of South Africans are quite thankful for. But which in no degree mitigates the evil of apartheid.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    In the German concentration camps, Jews wore yellow stars while homosexuals wore pink triangles”

    And still a whole bunch of people vote “Taliban” on sexual issues including something as natural as orientation. I can’t believe our quiet retardedness when it comes to matters of sexuality and I never knew that happened in concentration camps , and it’s incredibly sad to kill innocent people because of who their dna says they are. Taliban man, they should run here solely on the sex issues , they’d certainly get 5%. (lol)

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Kiwibank may be able to undercut its competitors but it's by virtue of the Employment Contracts Act and the franchise sytem not by being smarter.

    ERA, surely.

    I found the youtube video... I dunno. Creepy. The under/over tone of "fuck you you hypocrites, we'll do this to Tibet if we want, we're no worse than y'all."

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Whoah Jill!

    Thanks for delurking with that comment: that is complete news to me, and as a Kiwibank customer, it makes me feel a bit queasy.

    I can't take my business to TSB; I don't have a mortgage.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Ben Austin,

    I understand Nepal has been in a much better state this last 12 months or so as the previous regime (the king) had effectively given up and the country had agreed to reach a settlement with the Maoist revolt. I understand it isn't peachy there, but it apparently has improved (sort of)

    London • Since Nov 2006 • 1027 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Jill - a franchise may lose money on NZPost, so why do it?

    To become the one stop shop where they can cnr the local market on papers, mags, & lotto tickets.

    They should make more out of this package counting any loss from being NZ Post ticket clippers to make it more than viable.

    I'm not sure the man who favoured student loans for living expenses when a student leader & consistently worked to reduce workers conditions is to be trusted for low profile companies like your cnr book store.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Withers,

    Key is clearly struggling with the detail. Good to see it becoming obvious before the election rather than after. Voters who are paying attention will have been forewarned. Business leaders used to be being - in effect - dictators do seem to struggle when they make the cultural jump to democracy. They need to know so much more.

    Maybe the same applies to the collective mind of the Chinese leadership. Used to commanding, it may be that their writ is of limited power in Tibet without the guns being in clear view. Closer to oppression than democracy they, too, are struggling with what they don't know how to do. They need to know so much more.

    I don't have an encyclopaedic grasp of the history or the present with respect to Tibet. Do I wait until I have such an understanding before deciding people killing / maiming others is a bad idea? I don't think so. It's a good place to start.Tibet is another one of those situations where, from almost any angle, the history is long and sad. Urging restraint really is the only possible response in the short to medium term. China clearly regards this as an internal matter. Their ears won't be set to "Listen" if it means they hear only criticism.

    If they did stand back and let the rioters blow off steam, that may well be a sign that they have learned some of what they need to know to settle people down rather than squash them down. We'll have to see whether they talk to Tibetans about any issues, or just round up the leaders and make them disappear.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 312 posts Report Reply

  • Jill Reade,

    Shep - I'm not a franchise owner but presumably they take them on board to up the foot traffic. I don't think the Post franchise in itself is a problem but you would have to talk to th owners. It's having kiwibank on top that I understand to be a problem.

    EPMU seemed fairly unresponsive to the situation of franchise workers when I spoke to them. We are very little fish to a very big union I imagine. I asked for join up papers and a copy of the award even though it would not apply but never heard another dicky bird.

    Steven - I am sure Kiwibank will see the situation differently. Perhaps some franchise employers pay more fairly.I can only speak from my own experience and we were told not to discuss wages with other same shop staff. Divide and conquer. Hopefully Kiwibank could still do it better but ensure some kind of equity to the pepople delivering its services.

    Since Jun 2007 • 20 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    "I can only speak from my own experience and we were told not to discuss wages with other same shop staff. "

    That sounds illegal.

    Finsec might be worth a chat & Unite did well for the kids at McDs.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    But more importantly, let me speak up for China. Yes, they still do some bad things, but it's nothing compared to Stalin, Mao, Hitler or the US Civil war.

    um actually yes it is as bad
    and that's what we know about

    this is the amazing enigma of china, it's a beautiful fascinating place.
    But pretty ugly all at the same time

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 527 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    um actually yes it is as bad
    and that's what we know about

    Sue, even on the worst estimates there is no comparison between what's going on in China today and the Cultural Revolution, Stalin's purges, or the Holocaust. Or even the American Civil War, which claimed 620,000 lives.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • samuel walker,

    I'd rather not take........

    craig, well put.

    It reminds me of the modern corporate/psychopath conundrum. as long as they are playing by some rules, and are no worse than their__competitors__ then they believe they are not the evil ones. A justification that simply makes no sense. and once the justification has been made, they move onwards without ever ever looking back.

    Since Nov 2006 • 203 posts Report Reply

  • Mikaere Curtis,

    That youtube clip did not impress me at all. Firstly, he points out that Tibet has been independent quite a bit in the last millennium. And the sky didn't fall and China did not disintegrate, which basically defeats his main argument.

    As for the multicultural thing, sure it is multi-ethnic, but 55 of those 56 ethnicities are dominated by a single one.

    As for the "look how much we've invested in Tibet" thing, it's very similar to what some Pakeha say about Maori self-determination in Aotearoa. i.e. aren't you lucky we built all this stuff, now please sit down.

    I've been to Nepal and have spoken with Tibetans over there. The basic message is repeated time and again with respect to Chinese rule: "It's not their country."

    Tamaki Makaurau • Since Nov 2006 • 528 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    That youtube clip did not impress me at all. Firstly, he points out that Tibet has been independent quite a bit in the last millennium. And the sky didn't fall and China did not disintegrate, which basically defeats his main argument.

    Oh good, I thought I might have been going crazy or getting confused. Because he did appear to be saying that a) we've always owned Tibet and b) when they were running their own affairs they were awful at it. I was going to ask if there were any Tibetan maps from that period, but no doubt they were too busy trying to work out how to feed themselves. When not being rubbed all over the aching muscles of the British.

    I'm assuming that the point of all the pictures of the trains was how great China is, but I found it creepy the way people suddenly disappeared from that section.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    note to self
    try not to participate in riveting discussion when setting up wireless in the house
    you make dumb arse statements

    thanks everyone for ignoring that point after rb pointed out my silly :D

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 527 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    “Do I wait until I have such an understanding before deciding people killing / maiming others is a bad idea? I don't think so.”

    I don’t think that’s really up for debate.

    “If they did stand back and let the rioters blow off steam, that may well be a sign that they have learned some of what they need to know to settle people down rather than squash them down.”

    This kind of contradicts your statement above. As far as I have gathered from discussion so far killing, violence and maiming occurred because they ( the chinese authorities) stood back and waited. Death isn’t a bigoted concept. It’s standard across bloodlines. I don’t think anyone’s going to argue that present day China will ever stand glowingly as a nation with a commitment to the freedom of it’s people, although I’d struggle to show you many governments/ nations that inspire the democratic freedom fighter in me.

    I guess the excellent posts on this thread do ask new questions . What is China? Where is the aspirational temperament of the Chinese people. Is it Yugoslavia? How much does the collapse of china worry its citizens more than the progress of its minorities and is their a widespread belief internally that they are linked. It’s a moral default position to worry about the rights of individuals anywhere but it’s hard to negotiate even conceptual solutions without at least understanding the motivations of all parties, especially motivations that have been formed outside the general European/Pacific experience.

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    And to leap onto the lede in the OP, perhaps John Key should try out Senator Clinton's latest excuse for 'mispeaking' about landing in Bosnia under (non-existent) sniper fire:

    Sleep-deprivation.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    "More pertinent to this discussion might be: What's New Zealand in relation to China?"

    Sure, but I was trying to put my world citizen hat on here.
    Is freedom achievable for China in my lifetime and what would that look like?

    And would that impact the slow general march of the world’s population into freer more harmonious societies.

    I mean is anything ticking at the moment that good international diplomacy might defuse? might speed up? and so on....

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    I reckon those are some good points Jeremy and one i've been pondering today and reading up a bit so 'm not a complete duffer.
    Firstly i think china's importna becuase other human being are plus it's a beautful place, so that's enough for me to want to care.

    this decade has seen massive poverty reduction in china, that's a good thing. Yes it's uneven and the infant mortality rate totally blows.

    but obviously some things are starting to work for the betterment of the general population.

    so for me the question is how does human rights fit into that?
    how can the world encourage china to care about human rights?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 527 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    "how can the world encourage china to care about human rights?"

    There's a place in cuba that might need some immediate intention.

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    ..immediate attention i meant to say although "intent" is relevant here too.

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    (Thread jack)

    How's this for an Inconvenient Truth?

    Judge Judy's off to South America - rather than finish the murder trial ... er a murder trial.

    By any chance will she be held in contempt of court?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4449256a12855.html

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

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