Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Let's lynch the liberals!

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  • Russell Brown,

    but it is far from okay to attempt/wage any sort of defense of yourself by yourself, and without any appeal whatsoever to social legitimacy

    I've deleted your posts. Please, go away. You are not welcome here.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Dude, you know from experience I can do this all night. Knock it off.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    You've had plenty of chances, and risen to none of them. Again, please leave.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I take it that was lil p I sense the traces of. Sometimes it's a pleasure to miss parts of a discussion, it really is.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Herr Abenslass or something this time round Sacha.
    It's neat to see the polite but swift excisions accomplished by Russell & Emma-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I didn't really get David's complaint that there was some breach of faith in people discussing his blog post here, rather than on his own blog

    It does feel like an interesting point worth teasing out though. The nature of internet blogging promotes "hey look at this over here". And on a site like this, that then leads to discussion about what's over there.

    Often this discussion might be happening more "here" than "there" because not many theres in NZ have this size community. Indeed, there might be very little posts over there but an extensive discussion taking place here.

    Which you could argue is a little unfair to there, in that they've created the content, and PAS is just using it. To what extent do the creators of content deserve the discussion that flows from it?

    Not what David was arguing though I suspect.

    You've had plenty of chances, and risen to none of them. Again, please leave.

    There doesn't seem to be any need to make these sorts of posts. They look weird without the context.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    I'm not sure what I was looking for when I signed on, but I can't say I've found it yet. Perhaps apart from being told to 'take a look in the mirror'. I looked. Yip, it's still me, and happy for it.

    It seems that it is important to assess the 'status quo' opinion from the original, or sentinel, blog post and then take sides. If you pick the opposing view of the 'Opinion Leaders', be prepared for them to shout you down, or de-construct your post at a semantic level. And god help you if you attempt impartiality. Oh yeah, he doesn't exist, so you're on your own. Since we get little impartiality from mainstream media these days, bit hopeful to expect it in a blog. That's my naivety I suppose.

    As for this 'flame war', trolls and gnomes (are there gnomes? There should be gnomes. I like gnomes), what's the bloody point?

    It's like an uninvited guest at a party, who throws up in the kitchen, hits on your wife (partner/ girlfriend/ teenage daughter/ son), breaks your favourite vase, then just when you think they've been ejected, you wake up to find them sleeping in the flower bed out front. Sheeesh. Get a hobby...

    The premise of this is good, and RB and co clearly have some skill and ability in the field of journalism and highlighting topics of interest and import to 'us kiwis'. There I go all kiss arse again... Oh well, my forebears raised me to bring chocolates and flowers, not hooks and barbs, when visiting folk.

    Perhaps I either need to take it more seriously, and spend hours editing my 'brain dumps' (but isn't this supposed to be spontaneous?) or less seriously and just drop one liners.

    Are Tiger Woods jokes allowed?

    Ducks to avoid flying hyperbole...

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    recordari: Here's an idea- as the site guidelines suggest, try registering and posting under your own name. So that your boss, or your mum, or your mate, or the guy you went to school with and hated- could all see just what you've contributed.
    Just try it.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2110 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    If you pick the opposing view of the 'Opinion Leaders', be prepared for them to shout you down, or de-construct your post at a semantic level. And god help you if you attempt impartiality. Oh yeah, he doesn't exist, so you're on your own. Since we get little impartiality from mainstream media these days, bit hopeful to expect it in a blog. That's my naivety I suppose.

    There are a lot of clever and well-informed people on this site, and those people do tend to be the 'opinion leaders'. So if a person wants to run with a counter-argument, then they had better bring their A-game. A well-crafted counter-argument based on carefully weaving together a few facts, which actually addresses the arguments in the original post, will get you a lot further than semi-mindless regurgitation of a few tired slogans and talking points which are generally easily knocked over, or were already dismissed in the original post. Mr Ranapia's posts would be a good example of well-crafted, fact-based counter-arguing.

    I can't personally recall much 'shouting down', but there does tend to be a bit of short-tempered exasperation with, for example, people who turn up and regurgitate the aforesaid bunch of talking points without bothering to address the original points, or without adding anything new in the way of facts or argument. And there isn't a lot of patience with those who ramble incoherently, either.

    Despite what 'The Right' might think, Political Correctness is far from alive and well on this forum - it's actually quite Darwinist. One person's opinion isn't as valid as anothers - it's only as valid as the strength of your argument. If you know how to debate, you survive. Otherwise, you get short shrift. And debating isn't just 'you're wrong', 'no, you are'. It's bringing facts to the table, and presenting them well.

    Otherwise, pithy one-liners and jokes seem to be generally well-recieved.

    PS - all of this is general comment - not aimed at you personally

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    I think that Darwinian struggle may have some unintended consequences, Rich, at least as far as contentious issues go. Certainly I have had my rhetorical arse soundly (albeit deservedly) kicked when venturing a half-formed opinion, and that makes me a little bit wary about posting musing comments.

    If other people feel the same way, then there might be less diversity of viewpoint in some threads because only a few commenters have the logical chops, the information, and the fortitude to put a sound case.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    It seems that it is important to assess the 'status quo' opinion from the original, or sentinel, blog post and then take sides.

    Given how often (ie about 100% of the time) comment threads go off topic - like, say, this one - I don't think that's particularly helpful. The most useful thing you can do as a new commenter is read comments carefully, work out the accepted tone, and try to comment in that register. The worst thing you can do is make your first comment really aggressive and abrasive.

    Certainly I have had my rhetorical arse soundly (albeit deservedly) kicked when venturing a half-formed opinion, and that makes me a little bit wary about posting musing comments.

    I find, if you explicitly say that you're pondering something or exploring a half-formed idea, people are pretty patient and helpful. Most drama that doesn't involve someone deliberately being a tit comes from mis-reading, so the more explicit you are about what you're doing the better.

    The reply to pollywog is so obvious and has been said so many times I didn't think it needed repeating. If you just let everything go, what you end up with is Kiwiblog, and you lose far more speech than you gain. Except in really extreme cases, it's not the opinions that cause the problem, but the way they're expressed.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • pollywog,

    Anyway pollywog, you can come back, but do it with a song in your heart.

    thanx once again:)

    IMHO... the internet allows us to recreate ourselves online in our best possible image or not. its like a dorian grey thing, online personas hidden in the online attic, the uglier they get, the saner we stay in real life ? its healthy to be confronted with them ocassionally and i can even look at some/mine objectively and think hmmm...what an asshole but i dont hold it against them for any length of time, its mostly just rants du jour. and yes, i do turn the 'smoking mirror' of mayan myth to myself, to reflect not what i see but who i am and i'm happy with the image.

    'people' can be so unforgiving on line and hold percieved grudges for posts long since abandoned. it pays not to take shit personally and just deal with one opinion at a time regardless of who posted what. mostly i dont even look to see who posted what because it colours the perception of who i think they are or who they think they are or who they would like to be ?

    sorry and as for the song in my heart. it changes with the weather. at the moment it's

    and

    and

    somewhere else • Since Dec 2009 • 152 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    If other people feel the same way, then there might be less diversity of viewpoint in some threads because only a few commenters have the logical chops, the information, and the fortitude to put a sound case.

    That's what I wanted to say. But you said it way more eloquently. Bringing your A-game from the get go means you don't have the chance to cut your teeth.

    As for using real name bit, if I thought others could respect peoples privacy, or not get personal, I would, but I don't so I won't.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    That's what I wanted to say. But you said it way more eloquently. Bringing your A-game from the get go means you don't have the chance to cut your teeth

    And that does deter people from entering, I know. People can feel a bit intimidated by it. I do always like seeing "Posts: 1" in the left-hand column and knowing that someone's taken the plunge.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Jeez, PAS is a Darwinian struggle now? I thought I was just banging on about nothing in particular...

    its like a dorian grey thing, online personas hidden in the online attic, the uglier they get, the saner we stay in real life?

    That sounds like an awfully complicated thing to maintain, though. I think my online persona is aiming for 'a more coherent version of myself' - someone who is actually able to string a sentence together and doesn't say 'um' and 'dude' every other word, or trail off into 'oh, fuck it' when my thoughts don't quite pan out. But, you know, each to their own and all that. I suppose we all use the tubes in different ways.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Bringing your A-game from the get go means you don't have the chance to cut your teeth.

    Yes and nobody likes a smart arse :)
    As a wee contribution, opinion does help if it comes from experience, but in a schoolteacher kinda way can be a bit precious.(opinion,not knowledge bro)

    As for using real name bit, if I thought others could respect peoples privacy, or not get personal, I would, but I don't so I won't.

    I don't see how respecting one's privacy can be beneficial on te Internet, I mean, who you gonna tell, hello, it is the internet, may as well be honest, (in my small book). What I get ( see, opinion here, from experience ) is that not everyone has to be your best friend in general so threads, being the fabric of life, are many warps and wefts.
    that's life,
    what's life?... be init.
    (plus a smiley face shows not always that serious init :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    And that does deter people from entering, I know. People can feel a bit intimidated by it. I do always like seeing "Posts: 1" in the left-hand column and knowing that someone's taken the plunge.

    Yes, and having survived the bFm initiation gauntlet of the late 80s, I wonder if I can be bothered. I must admit though that am feeling more 'stable' about the fear after some of these words of encouragement. This particular string has sure been an interesting place to dwell, but now it's time for something else.

    If there aren't already 'gnomes' in blogs, maybe I'll be one of those.

    Gnome me, before you judge me...

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • pollywog,

    ...less diversity of viewpoint in some threads a few commenters have the logical chops, the information, and the fortitude to put a sound case.

    and theres an element that culturally disadvantages some who dont even have the basic language skills.

    Bringing your A-game from the get go means you don't have the chance to cut your teeth.

    some of us dont even have an A game. so tend to change the accepted rules and play by our own and if that means we play with ourselves then i'm not averse to doing that either:)

    try registering and posting under your own name. So that your boss, or your mum, or your mate, or the guy you went to school with and hated- could all see just what you've contributed.

    last thing i would want is for my kids to find out what a dick their old man can be online. it'd be like watching pron with your mum ?

    That sounds like an awfully complicated thing to maintain, though.

    not really. you just let your fingers do the talking and visit the attic as little as possible. of course when someone drags you kicking and screaming there for some time out, well that's different.

    somewhere else • Since Dec 2009 • 152 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    If other people feel the same way, then there might be less diversity of viewpoint in some threads because only a few commenters have the logical chops, the information, and the fortitude to put a sound case.

    Well, I remember agonising for some time about taking the plunge with my first couple of posts, and spending quite some time drafting and redrafting them once I actually decided I wanted to respond. My biggest concern was not looking like a dick.

    But that happens in real life, too. Start a new job, or meet a new group of people (new partners family and friends, for example), and you're going to be on your best behaviour, and your spider-senses are going to be going full-bore while you try to work out the unstated web of relationships and undercurrents of various tensions in the group dynamic.

    And that does deter people from entering, I know. People can feel a bit intimidated by it.

    Well, as has been pointed out recently, there's a lot of lurkers, and I suspect that that is at least part of the reason. But it's a double-edged sword: It's possibly one reason that the level of debate doesn't descend into the sewer.

    Jeez, PAS is a Darwinian struggle now?

    No, it's more Intelligently Designed than that! Ba-doom tish! Coat, getting, etc.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Jeez, PAS is a Darwinian struggle now? I thought I was just banging on about nothing in particular...

    ...and to respond to that a bit more intelligently: yes, as I mentioned, there seems to be a niche for those who just want to provide a side commentary (humourous or otherwise) on or to events within the community. But you yourself have been reasonably quick to elegantly rip someone's arguments to ribbons if you've thought they deserved it. On feminism and reproductive issues, for example. Which I would suggest supports my point.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    See, there is clearly a role for the innocuous gnome. You're all having fun defining the concept of PAS, and I'm learning some more about 'the way things are done round here'.

    For some reason I'm reminded of the notions of Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft. Community and Society. Is it useful to define the participation in both broader 'society', and these microcosms, in these terms? Acknowledging that it is a continuum.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Geoff Lealand,

    This current conversation has taken some interesting twists and turns. It is quite some task to understand all the nuances of PAS--most particularly the connections and back stories of some of the old-timers and there are times still when I have no idea what is going on. But I guess that is a characteristic of any long and complex conversation.

    Screen & Media Studies, U… • Since Oct 2007 • 2562 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    PAS has even been the subject of an academic paper this year - by Kerry W. She asked for comments from contributors.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    and theres an element that culturally disadvantages some who dont even have the basic language skills.

    Yes, that's certainly the case. Prose style is power in a a forum like this. People who can write clever, funny or persuasive sentences have an advantage. Which, on a personal level, suits me just fine. I can do this stuff well. But I have taken a vow to only use my power for good ;-)

    I see it as an extension of the culture I first encountered on Usenet in mid-90s, and I suspect I'm not the only one for whom that's the case. Would I be right there? Are many of our regulars also Usenet veterans?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    I see it as an extension of the culture I first encountered on Usenet in mid-90s, and I suspect I'm not the only one for whom that's the case. Would I be right there? Are many of our regulars also Usenet veterans?

    Guilty as charged. And I must say that even in those heady days the most ritually toxic event for a group wasn't trolling as such, but the influx of newbies who had a problem with the tenor of the general conversation. And it was always the same sort of complaint: you guys are too left wing/right wing/elitist/mean to newbies/you don't talk about this topic enough/you talk about this topic too much. As if it could be reasonably expected for a forum - any forum - to be a channel of pure communication, without idiosincracies and cliques and personalities and mannerisms. That's simply not how social groups work. And conversely any group should be critically aware of its inner workings, but it can't become the sole subject of conversation every other day. That's what made Usenet untenable in the end for me.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

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