Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Dreaming of a world without evidence

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  • Ross Bell,

    @ Russell. Try this for a great academic abstract from a paper studying how policy makers use evidence:

    Based on participant observation in a team of British policy-making civil servants carried out in 2009, this article examines the use that is made of evidence in making policy. It shows that these civil servants displayed a high level of commitment to the use of evidence. However, their use of evidence was hampered by the huge volume of various kinds of evidence and by the unsuitability of much academic research in answering policy questions. Faced with this deluge of inconclusive information, they used evidence to create persuasive policy stories. These stories were useful both in making acceptable policies and in advancing careers. They often involved the excision of methodological uncertainty and the use of ‘killer charts’ to boost the persuasiveness of the narrative. In telling these stories, social inequality was ‘silently silenced’ in favour of promoting policies which were ‘totemically’ tough. The article concludes that this selective, narrative use of evidence is ideological in that it supports systematically asymmetrical relations of power.

    Telling Policy Stories: An Ethnographic Study of the Use of Evidence in Policy-making in the UK

    Wellington, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 175 posts Report

  • Andrew E, in reply to Ross Bell,

    Fascinating - thank you very much for the pointer to that.

    Untangling those 'systematically asymmetrical relations of power' depends on more people like I/S making use of the OIA, and challenging refusals, IMHO.

    174.77 x 41.28 • Since Sep 2008 • 200 posts Report

  • DexterX,

    After today's legal aid announcement - and the apparent failure to develop good policy with any rational basis or logical process -"Dreaming of a world without justice" is the new thing - and that dream is coming true for some and will be a nightmare for others.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report

  • Steve Barnes,

    I think I'll post this here because, well, why not?.
    I was talking to some people tonight who said they were lifelong labour supporters but would not be voting for them this time, their reason?
    Labour introduced secondary taxation on a second job.
    Labour started their term with a surplus and left us in debt.
    Labour scrapped the apprenticeship scheme.
    The list went on... and on.
    When I asked them why they thought this they said "everyone knows that"
    I despair.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report

  • Islander, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    O. Berloody> HELL-----

    WHY do people, especially people who call themselves "lifelong Labour supporters" not ACTUALLY EDUCATE - ok ok ok, I'm getting upset here, I promise no more caps, truly - themselves? Are these people you mention Steve B, talkback radio listeners perchance?

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report

  • Steve Barnes,

    Not to my knowledge, they seem quite intelligent, if not a bit pub bound and on other matters seem quite informed. I was dumbfounded to be honest. It makes you wonder where they get their information from. I will work on them. ;-)

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report

  • Islander,

    Do so, mate. And permantly switch off their radios!

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report

  • Steve Barnes,

    I get the impression the are Herald readers.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    And, if I had been there…..;), (I probably would have been asked to leave, with my big mouth)
    It’s like the “nine long years" mantra for muppets.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report

  • Steve Barnes,

    The reason I was "gobsmacked" was that these particular people are good people who usually agree with me (hence "good people") I was just amazed that they would believe these things and more amazed that they thought it was common knowledge. We do have a big problem with the media, bigger than I thought.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report

  • 81stcolumn,

    However, their use of evidence was hampered by the huge volume of various kinds of evidence and by the unsuitability of much academic research in answering policy questions. Faced with this deluge of inconclusive information, they used evidence to create persuasive policy stories.

    Does anyone grasp the irony of ethnographers blaming poor sources and poor storytelling ?

    Nawthshaw • Since Nov 2006 • 790 posts Report

  • Islander, in reply to 81stcolumn,

    Yup. Grad studs going out with rampant assumptions?

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    It’s like the “nine long years" mantra for muppets.

    '9 long years' is often a dead giveaway of a concern troll who never voted for Helen in the first place. But as it stands, the waters are far too muddy to tell between genuine turncoats and real-life trolls, and the trolls seem to revel in that - they leave their opponents shooting in the dark.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to 81stcolumn,

    various kinds of evidence

    Empirical, anecdotal or contradictory. It all works when you have an agenda.
    ;-)

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report

  • DexterX,

    Labour are 'wiggy" and not up to much, if they had remained in govt they would have moved into assets sales.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0808/S00124.htm

    The Nats are agenda driven and doing things because they can do them and not because those things they are doing are the "best" or optimal outcomes for the country.
    Shrinking the economy and borrowing for tax cuts is insane.

    Submission to the select committe considering legal aid will be invited.

    It is Hobson's choice this year.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to DexterX,

    Labour are ’wiggy” and not up to much, if they had remained in govt they would have moved into assets sales.

    But..

    Then on Agenda, on July 14 2008 Mr Mallard reconfirmed that policy: 'I'm happy for things which are not part of the core to be partially floated, at the moment there's none of those that are big enough to be interesting'.

    Mr Brownlee says Labour needs to explain which 'non core' assets it is looking to sell.

    Brownlee doesn't have a clue what"non core" means.
    If we were to have large Government owned assets that could be managed by private companies I see no problem with selling them off, providing they were "Non Core" ie. not strategic infrastructure such as Power companies or water boards.
    National, on the other hand would sell their Grandmothers if there was a buck in it for them or their mates.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report

  • linger, in reply to 81stcolumn,

    Ethnography is, ideally, about faithfully recording and explaining the viewpoint of the subjects of the investigation. The problem is that if you follow that method, it's difficult to use any external reference frame to criticise anyone.

    So I hope it’s more like ethnographers (uncritically) reporting politicians as blaming poor sources, and reporting politicians’ own myth about “story creation”.

    Even so, that description of “story creation” is just mindboggling in how far it bends over backwards and spreads its legs to be fair to politicians.

    they used evidence to create persuasive policy stories.

    should really read:
    “they cherry-picked, abused, and tortured evidence to tell stories that fit pre-existing policy preferences.”

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1944 posts Report

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to linger,

    “they cherry-picked, abused, and tortured evidence to tell stories that fit pre-existing policy preferences.”

    Sounds like our esteemed PM

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report

  • Jeremy Eade,

    The demand for this stuff my way seems huge, honestly i've never seen daries put so much advertising for a new product not bankrolled by corporates on their front counters, uncritiqued chemicals at the dairy, strange times.

    Chemicals are potentially bad o.k

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report

  • linger, in reply to Jeremy Eade,

    Chemicals are potentially bad o.k

    Um … good luck finding an example of a food (or, anything at the dairy, really) that doesn’t contain any chemicals.
    Could you be a little more specific?

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1944 posts Report

  • Jeremy Eade,

    The point is it's bizzare that this strange new ciggie sprayed with dope aping chemicals is out there freely trading beside the chewing gum and choclate bars , with all the visual associations of dope and an unsoliticited promotion from bob marley yet medical marijuna is banned , a herb with centuries of study.....I believe in Timaru they are trying to jail a guy today for using the real stuff as medicine.

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report

  • BenWilson, in reply to Jeremy Eade,

    It is bizarre. I don't like to smoke something that has so little history. It took many decades for the truth about the dangers of tobacco to be widely accepted - the baccy companies still deny it to this day. The virtual absence of any recorded incidences of deaths directly attributed to toxic effects of cannabis span many decades, and millions, if not billions, of users.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report

  • Sacha, in reply to BenWilson,

    The virtual absence of any recorded incidences of deaths

    I think you mean *total* absence.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sacha,

    I think you mean *total* absence.

    I think there are studies showing that cannabis smoking has been a factor in lung disease, to take one example. Possibly also someone had some dropped on their head once.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report

  • BenWilson,

    Smoking anything seems likely to be a little bit harmful - bombarding tissue with large, very hot particles. I notice numerous side effects that couldn't be said to be good. But compared to so many other things we do, it's not high on the list of dangerous killers.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report

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