Hard News: Another nail in the coffin of music DRM
691 Responses
First ←Older Page 1 … 13 14 15 16 17 … 28 Newer→ Last
-
Robbery, you don't seem to have much conception of what software actually is. It's just a bunch of instructions to a machine. Those instructions can decoded to very verbose machine code by anybody with a disassembler and modified by anybody with a hex editor. Thusly, nothing is uncrackable because the nature of "cracking" is "reading, understanding and deliberately changing", and reading and changing software is completely possible. Understanding depends on skill, intellect, time and effort. That's what software developers do for a living, much of the time. The only way that something could become uncrackable would be if it was too complex for human or machine analysis. If it is created by humans it's probably not too complex for human analysis, and if it's obfuscated by machines then it's very likely to be vulnerable to machine analysis.
Some software doesn't get cracked. That's true - but it's more a reflection of market forces than technical possibility. A house with nothing in it but a broken fishing rod and some bird poo is also unlikely to be burgled given there are more prestigious targets available.
You could possibly make software into something that is innately unreadable and unchangeable, but that would require you to redesign the PC from the bottom up. Again, like your DRM solutions. It won't happen in a hurry, because the people who buy PCs don't see it as a feature - so there's no financial advantage in vendors spending money on researching and developing it.
Since you're asking for links, here's some detail on the widely-discussed delights of your uncrackable PACE iLok platform:
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/12/03/developer-to-users-boycott-ilok-and-pace-2/
http://studionebula.com/blog/2007/12/02/why-i-boycott-products-that-use-paceilok-and-why-you-should-tooOr we could go the obvious route and try fun with Wikipedia:
**As with all copy protection**, some software covered by InterLok requiring an iLok has been cracked by several different cracking groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILok_Smart_Key (my emphasis in the quote...)
... and if you do a bit of reading around on the topic it seems pretty common knowledge that various cracks of iLok apps are out there. There also seem to be "demo reset" hacks against iLok for a bunch more.
I've made my argument for "there's no such thing as uncrackable" - would you care to present a mathematical proof of how you could build a software system that is machine executable and will run on existing hardware, yet is completely impervious to tinkering? Failing that, is there any chance you could stop asserting stuff that you really have no case to back up, and then being obnoxious when somebody points out that you're wrong about it?
The problem I have with you on this issue is that every time somebody calls you on the impossibility of what you're staunchly standing behind you just resort to hand-waving "some smart person will fix it for me". The problem is that most of the people contributing to this thread who actually are software developers (unlike you) appear to be disagreeing with you. Does that not tell you something?
-
some software
would imply some hasn't.
and why are you tying down the future delivery medium of music to digital.
some labels are delivering on vinyl only now,
you know what a hassle it is to copy stuff off vinyl.
I do. fucking pain in the ass medium. -
I've made my argument for "there's no such thing as uncrackable"
if that were the case wouldn't your quote have read 'All' software covered by ilok? not wanting to annoy you or anything cos you're quite unpleasant when you're annoyed
-
also this concept of uncrackable. not entirely necessary, a fucking hassle, difficult to crack, pain in the ass to work around, only computer geeks can be fucked working around it, etc etc, all those options are viable and more appealing than just pick it up and steal it. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm sure you will.
-
every time somebody calls you on the impossibility of what you're staunchly standing behind
untrue again, I liked the concept of catering to peoples desire to share and I don't staunchly stand behind anything, and I take offense to suggesting I feel about anything so strongly that I would.
either you haven't read or don't fully understand many of the points I'm throwing out there.
if DRM is to become history as Russell infers in his title, I have said that this is not necessarily a good thing.
I have said the justifications that the general population and certain authorities and media comentators have thrown up for wholesale free for all (evil record companies deserve it cos they all rip artists of all the time, I saw it in the movies etc) its jut plan crap, embarrassing crap at that.
I've said the concept of copy protection isn't as simple as topping someone downloading an mp3. There are lots of factors involved in the road to that mp3 and many ways of making it a bloody pain to access. I don't pretend to have all the answers (although you seem to for yourself) but I do have an number of questions.
and I haven't been obnoxious to everyone, mostly just you cos its hard to respect someone who shows no respect, and seems to enjoy arguing more than discussion.other than that, I got no problem.
-
And, by their own terms, nearly everyone already gives away music, via YouTube, MySpace,
this isn't true.
every since myspace updated their setup software to default to listen only everyone is making available their music for listening and not download. most pages do not have download activated for music. yes you can stream capture sound, but what a pain that is. you'd have to really want it.youtube is also set up for view only although you can install plugins to capture, the file format is flv which doesn't play on quick time or VLC player. the free players for mac are shit or the ones I have found are.
-
But let's take an example closer to home. I could restrict access to Public Address to paying subscribers -- and call it, say, "Public Address Premium Content". But then I'd devalue my proposition to advertisers, and to the people willing to pay, who would find the community contributing to discussions considerably smaller than had been the case. And someone would just find a way to get around it anyway.
So I give it away. And I actually give it away quite a lot outside Public Address. I talk to five different radio stations (at the same time as I make paid radio content) because it's good marketing. It's just network economics.
yeah but PA is your loss leader.
PA is part of RB media expert, which I assume you charge for when you write columns for the listener as an authority or papers for NZ on Air.Personally I have no objection to paying for quality content. one of my favourite blogs shut down through lack if income and I was completely prepared to pay for it as opposed to the alternative of having it not exist.
and you don't give it away. you sell it to your public by making them consume advertising. its not free.
I'd rather pay a dollar or 2 to watch a show without ads than lose 15 mins an hour to ads. with your blog you'd whittle your audience down to net nerds and that wouldn't do if you want a full on 'internet savvy' persona. ad blocker makes the whole experience a lot more fun but I suppose thats a bit like downloading music for nothing isn't it :)
-
every time somebody calls you on the impossibility of what you're staunchly standing behind
I've also questioned the notion that musicians are happy to have the music stolen so long as it reaches a large audience. many musicians are hesitant to go on record as being fucked off and strongly opposed to the current situation because they don't want to be openly attacked or "lars ulrich'd"
some do smile graciously as their music sails freely on the pirate seas, but those would be the ones on a record company salary with little to lose. I guess some record contracts aren't all bad. -
if that were the case wouldn't your quote have read 'All' software covered by ilok? not wanting to annoy you or anything cos you're quite unpleasant when you're annoyed
I'm starting to suspect you're just trolling, mate. No, the fact that some software hasn't been cracked does not prove it uncrackable. That's a logical fallacy of the highest order. Every post you make has some screaming howler like this one in it, and every time somebody calls you on one you just change the subject. In fact, you do that so rapidly anyway that it's impossible to actually pin you down to honestly evaluating any position you make - classic troll tactics.
I gave you a good robust discussion (with no personal animosity) on the nature of software and its nature. I can keep going on that point if you have questions relating to the veracity of anything I've said. But instead since I posted that we've had:
* But "some software" isn't cracked, so therefore it's uncrackable. Logical fallacy. Does not follow.
* Everybody's going to go back to vinyl anyway. Sure, whatever.
* DRM failing is a bad thing. Irrelevant to the point as to whether it is actually possible in the first place, which is what I've been trying to discuss with you.
* VLC can't play FLV files. http://www.videolan.org/vlc/features.html - bottom of the table.
* Musicians don't want to give their music away. Also kind of irrelevant if DRM doesn't work and isn't going to.Some of the things you're talking about are actual points, and I'd be more than happy to discuss musicians and what they do and don't like about the music industry or the moral correctness of a strict user-pays sales model for music vs one where people share content. That'd be great. But when virtually every post changes the subject, fails to address salient points made to you and/or contains a blatently incorrect statement it's really hard to see that you're doing anything other than deliberately trolling.
If you want to pick a subject, stick to it and actually discuss points substantively then maybe you might find people a touch more respectful towards you.
-
the nature of software and its nature.
Also on its nature, and the nature of its nature...
-
No, the fact that some software hasn't been cracked does not prove it uncrackable. That's a logical fallacy of the highest order.
Really, professor?
ok by that logic the fact that something has not been successfully copy protected doesn't mean it never will be. -
one for you kyle
assuming you're correct and its an unstoppable force meeting an immovable mountain and the force wins, ....
what do you see as the ramifications of that for creative content?
sink, swim, give up? -
what I said
some labels are delivering on vinyl only now,
what you said I said.
* Everybody's going to go back to vinyl anyway. Sure, whatever.
FFS finn, get a grip. if you're going to mis quote me at least have the decency to let a couple of pages of discussion pass before you do it. its on the same fucking page mate :)
* DRM failing is a bad thing. Irrelevant to the point as to whether it is actually possible in the first place, which is what I've been trying to discuss with you.
you assume I want to talk to you. I think I've made it quite clear that I've got your point, stated my observations relating to it and moved on since you were adding nothing new, no links no facts. and some really strange logic.
* VLC can't play FLV files. http://www.videolan.org/vlc/features.html - bottom of the table.
doesn't play the ones I've extracted from youtube in the last couple of weeks.. maybe I can apply some of your logic here... um let me see, just because it doesn't doesn't mean that it doesn't? is that right?
-
if you want to pick a subject, stick to it and actually discuss points substantively then maybe you might find people a touch more respectful towards you.
where's your moderator bag?
I wasn't aware that you'd been appointed and were fluent in the rules of correct debate.
I find pretty much everyone else's comments quite reasonable, I don't mind you commenting but you seem to want me to say that you're right and I just well to be honest, I'm not trying to impress you so i'm happy if you don't engage me in conversation, that cool?
sweet. -
FWIW I can't download The Clean anthology from emusic- it says it's "not available in your country (NZ)".
The Roy Montgomery tracks seem to dl ok though. -
what do you see as the ramifications of that for creative content?
I think we've had a bunch of decades where the primary music model has been about bands getting a recording contract, getting radio play, going on tour etc. Primary in that, is the music company. I think that dynamic is shifting, and the internet is breaking down that interface and more directly linking producers of music with consumers.
I think more and more bands will be recording music off their own back, using their own systems to mix it, and distribute it online. A lot will still use music companies, but their role will be reduced.
I think producers of music who are young now, are going to be less uptight about having their music flowing around, with them not getting paid for it. I think they'll work on building closer connections with fans, because they'll become more aware that it's a moral issue, and if their fans feel close to the band, they're more likely to pay to get the music that the band produces.
I like a Canadian band called the Barenaked Ladies, which friends of mine introduced me to. They've released a double album worth of songs via online video, of a couple of members of the band playing their music in the bathroom. They release some of their live stuff straight onto a CD/USB that you can buy as you leave the concert, they arrange boat trips where you can go on a cruise with the band, they're very folksy and funny and it works well. Their fans are fanatically supportive and very connected to the band.
In 2000 they released a new song directly onto napster, which got interrupted in the middle with the band advertising their new album. They encourage their fans to share their music with friends as it builds their community and the fanbase. They're publicly opposed to DRM and think that a band suing people who are actually their fans, is kinda stupid.
I think the world changes. The current musical model is going through a fairly decent sized shift. The winners will recognise this and shift with it.
-
doesn't play the ones I've extracted from youtube in the last couple of weeks..
All else aside, this definitely ain't right unless it only applies to certain videos. I just went and grabbed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeSWMG6Tlhg and it plays fine on VLC 0.8.6c/Linux here. Mplayer had a bit of a hissy fit about the audio format, but VLC is fine.
-
Oh, and just to spread the content-filter-troubling filth from the other thread a bit, after the groove about four minutes into that video I'd totally stare at pictures of ?uestlove looking skanky on a faux leopard-skin couch. For hours. And I'm straight...
Are you listening, Dominion Post?
-
Hmmm. I've found stretches of this thread fascinating and informative, and it did make me go and get Steal This Film II (the 720p HD version sure does bear out unflattering stereotypes about geek skin tone). I gave them some money.
But I think we've gone as far as we can go for now. It'll just be more bickering. Agreed?
-
I'm all good with that, the endless circles were making me dizzy. And really I'm just still happy about that Jay Z video. Does anybody know if you can get that Unplugged performance on DVD?
-
Sounds good, I feel anything I add would just be referencing stuff that's already been articulated anyway.
-
But I think we've gone as far as we can go for now. It'll just be more bickering. Agreed?
C'mon Russ, Robbery is only just getting started here. By page 30 or 40 we'll really be starting to get somewhere.
-
Can the last person to leave switch the lights out please.
-
By page 30 or 40 we'll really be starting to get somewhere.
what's the longest thread on PA anyway? I'm guessing 19 pages is big but not the record?
-
But I think we've gone as far as we can go for now. It'll just be more bickering. Agreed?
the QTrax/SpiralFrog thing of yesterday was a really interesting development both for music distribution and the story of DRM. really really interesting that they add their own DRM to essentially files so they're only playable in their application. That's a pretty left field idea I wasn't expecting.
Post your response…
This topic is closed.