Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Another entry in the Public Address Medical Journal

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  • giovanni tiso,

    He also skipped gaily past the part about how ACC and health insurance companies fund it ...

    Well, to be fair, he did offer a helpful jibe on the Astrology degree thing. Which - since I'll grab *any* excuse I can find to do this - gives me the opportunity to promote the Star Labs at Te Papa this Matariki. Go listen to Rangimoana Taylor illuminate the continuum between myth, astrology and astronomy, it is really a beautiful presentation. Check Te Papa's Matariki programme for times.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    Don't get me wrong I'm not calling Russell or Gio's wife gullible

    Gio n=1. Your wife got better and you and she attribute that to some exercises, you may be right but that does not constitute proof. Not that either of you care the only important thing is she is better which we are all happy about. It is the difficulty of proof in medicine that drives folks crazy.

    Both of you argue that Osteopaths should be recognised and my issue is that if they should be recognised then they should be recognised as specialists and only see patients that are referred by someone who has done a thorough diagnosis. The point being someone with kidney stones should not be being treated by an osteopath.

    Russell's point is that his GP missed it and the osteopath diagnosed it correctly. Which is the second huge problem with discussing any of this and that is both the GP and osteopath are both human and you find people who are really awesome with or without a medical degree. Not criticising Russell's GP specifically just noting that with the best will people will misdiagnose.

    Personally my physio is awesome and I'll take his treatment first, after I've seen my GP, who is also pretty neat.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4458 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Gio n=1. Your wife got better and you and she attribute that to some exercises, you may be right but that does not constitute proof. Not that either of you care the only important thing is she is better which we are all happy about. It is the difficulty of proof in medicine that drives folks crazy.

    All due respect: you're crazy.

    She went in to see this guy, and felt instantly better on her first visit, after more than a year of pain and fruitful treatment. You're either looking at the most amazing coincidence in the history of health, or it was the ostepath's work. After a handful of sessions, she was sent home with exercises and has been symptoms free for years. So it was not only an improvement but a sustained one. It also helps that she removed the root cause, of course, but she had already done that for over a year the first time she went to see the osteo.

    It's not a proof that osteopathy works in the abstract, I suppose, but once you start getting a lot of people for whom it works really the onus of proving that *it doesn't* work shifts to you, I think.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • stephen walker,

    patronising 'r' us

    nagano • Since Nov 2006 • 645 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Both of you argue that Osteopaths should be recognised and my issue is that if they should be recognised then they should be recognised as specialists and only see patients that are referred by someone who has done a thorough diagnosis.

    But are you going to apply the same requirements to, say anyone who practices massage, sports physio, etc? All those people take clients directly. You seem to think I went to my osteo because I had kidney stones. I went because I had back pain, and the treatment has eased that in the past.

    The point being someone with kidney stones should not be being treated by an osteopath.

    Which is why mine sent me to my GP when it became clear that what was happening wasn't just a back strain.

    Russell's point is that his GP missed it and the osteopath diagnosed it correctly.

    He didn't so much diagnose it -- not his job, clearly -- as discuss with me a few things that it could be, and send me back to the doctor. It was only relatively recently that the symptoms became frequent and acute, so I can't totally blame the GP for not getting first time around. I'll be more intent on getting every symptom discussed properly in future though ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Fruitful = fruitless. Opsies. This belated editing is brough to you by the Te Papa Starlabs, which you really ought to see.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    OT but sort of cogent- Rangimoana is one talented person! I had the pleasure of being with him among the large ANZ delegation(Te Whanau o Aotearoa) to the 1985 South Pacific Arts Festival in Tahiti.
    His acting & storytelling ability were wonderful and his sheer physical presence made his performances totally memorable. Lucky Wellington people! Get along to Te Papa right nowh!

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • stephen walker,

    @giovanni:

    the Te Papa website is pretty short on detail.
    which sessions does Rangimoana Taylor do?
    is it all the "Matariki Star Lab sessions" on level 4?

    nagano • Since Nov 2006 • 645 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Osteopathy seems to be in a similar place to acupuncture: the theoretical underpinnings are bonkers in scientific terms, but it appears to work, for some things. The British Medical Association published a study on that:

    In 2000, the BMA report on Acupuncture: efficacy, safety and practice [Reference 8] considered the evidence base and reported that acupuncture appeared to be more effective than sham acupuncture or other control interventions for nausea and vomiting (most convincing for post-operative nausea in adults), and for back pain, dental pain and migraine. The evidence relating to osteoarthritis and neck pain to acupuncture was unclear. Acupuncture's role in recovery from stroke, and the treatment of tension headache, fibromyalgia and temporomandibular joint dysfunction was also uncertain. The report also commented that acupuncture appeared not to be superior to sham acupuncture for smoking cessation or weight loss.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    the Te Papa website is pretty short on detail.
    which sessions does Rangimoana Taylor do?
    is it all the "Matariki Star Lab sessions" on level 4?

    Yes, there's always a second host working with him and operating the little portable planetarim but I'd be surprised if he wasn't always involved - he's clearly done the research and it means quite a lot to him personally. We had a brief chat about it back in January but I never quite managed to go back for a longer one.

    There's a brief video of the man here, second from the top.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Osteopathy seems to be in a similar place to acupuncture: the theoretical underpinnings are bonkers in scientific terms, but it appears to work, for some things.

    Another thing I routinely reccommend is the film Dear Diary by Nanni Moretti. One of the episodes it's the story of his cancer, which initially presented as a dermatitis, and was (unsuccessfully) treated as such by a series of medical luminaries who then basically told him he had to just toughen up. In his struggle to alleviate the symptoms, he went to see alternative healers, including acupuncturists of the traditional chinese medicine centre in Rome. It was them who told him to get a lung X-Ray, and sure enough, it was Hogdkin's Lymphoma. Naturally, it was operated on by one of 'our' surgeons, but it hadn't been for the quacks, it wouldn't have been diagnosed.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • stephen walker,

    thanks gio for the info.
    sounds like a good school holiday trip.
    i can't go, but i know one or two young-and-restless things who may be keen...

    nagano • Since Nov 2006 • 645 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Remember "unclear" or "uncertain" doesn't necessarily mean does not work.
    I use acupuncture and an osteo occasionally and deep tissue massage and swear by all of them and was interested to note the other day that Rehab plus now has an inhouse nurse who also does acupuncture there. Although my leg is strange, I still walk out of an acupuncture/ deep tissue session with much more ease. My acupuncturist says it is about getting your blood to flow correctly or yin and yang and western meds is blood pressure which is sorta same same. I have also seen blood results after a one month session with my acupuncturist where one of his clients had a number of dangerous levels that had been reduced dramatically to a considered perfect range by western standards on redoing the same tests.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    I'll be clumsily blogging something about it tomorrow - no substitute for the real thing, but hey, you're in Japan, take what you can get.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    (sorry, that was a reply to stephen obviously. D'oh.)

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • seedy ink snot,

    'continuum beween myth, astrology & astronomy"
    now what is that really supposed to mean?

    that superimposing groovy maori motifs upon the nightsky
    at your local kulchur emporium
    will suddenly, painkillingly relieve us all
    of the burden of thinking those centuries throughout which untold (sic!) christian thinkers sought to learn how to distinguish their mission from a mere identification of the intelligible
    as but so many (typological) emanations of a cosmological compactitude (world soul) according to which humans are so many violently-disposed fragments frantic to recompose their whole?


    ..and to subject nature at last to a fearlessly de-sacralized, always tending now towards the objective, scrutiny?


    What is WITH this 'get along to Te Papa' carry on really?
    'OUR Father, who art in the kulchur emporium...
    mellowed be thy name.... '

    Since Jun 2009 • 19 posts Report Reply

  • Zippy Gonzales,

    Nicely plugged giovanni. I might just check it out.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 186 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Psst: I do good deals in Magnetic Blankets too! The shysters who peddle those should be shot.

    Ross, if it wasn't for magnets I'd be stuffed.

    Do I care that I do not understand how they work, much like acupuncture and osteopathy seem to (but homeopathy doesn't for me)?

    Do I give a toss that the western medical industry has not done its historically recent form of clinical studies on them (compared with other health traditions that are thousands of years old)?

    Or perhaps like many others I trust that I'm smart enough to notice the effect over time, notice when it's not there - and ask other intelligent people about their experience to decide whether to go there.

    And you wonder why people have such little respect for overly-rational sad little clinicians/scientists/economists?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19719 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    'continuum beween myth, astrology & astronomy"
    now what is that really supposed to mean?

    It means, in my imperfect understanding, that Maori astronomy, which factually described the night sky and drew from those observations important and sophisticated tools for orientation and the marking of time and the seasons, needed myth and storytelling in order to be understood, remembered and transmitted to future generations.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Nicely plugged giovanni. I might just check it out.

    Nah, you're in Wellington, sorry: get your arse to Te Papa. I'll block your IP if I have to!

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • stephen walker,

    out damned spot

    nagano • Since Nov 2006 • 645 posts Report Reply

  • seedy ink snot,

    so what 'sophisticated tools for orientation'
    do you, presumably not a Maori
    draw from any of this now?
    i mean, do we, by this 'orientation' word
    mean to indicate our ability to find our seaward way to
    a heretofore unheard of blob of land that will one day
    be called 'Aotearoa'

    or do we mean by it simply to signal
    the present ntensity-level of our piety?

    Since Jun 2009 • 19 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Word, stephen walker-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    presumably not a Maori

    Gio, I think you've been falling down on the whole Discussing Where You're Originally From thing. ;)

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    You can't tell from his name, that's fer sure.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19719 posts Report Reply

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