Cracker: That's Not My Name
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Do you think that the Close Up producers might actually have an elaborate, straight-faced, subversive sense of humour? By the time I got to the end of the second of those Close-Up "hug a ginga" stories, I started to wonder if this was really an Eating Media Lunch or Brass Eye-type parody of serious current affairs.
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So I guess it's actually a quota on Polynesian players who are also stupid.
That particular dodge might allow Haden to actually be right, and not completely contravening reality. Because so far, even with his two back-down positions ('of course I didn't mean it was actually written down when I said it was written down' and 'when I said darkies I didn't mean Maori') he still doesn't appear to know what he's talking about. So I'm sure there's some reason all those other Pacific Island players don't count that we'll hear about shortly.
In Haden's... defence? I'm quite sure somebody told him this, one night, in a bar, after a few beers, and I'm sure he believes it. It's the part where he saw nothing wrong with repeating it in public with no verification at all that should reflect on his suitability as an ambassador.
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unlike, say, Christian Cullen, who could hold his own in conversation with Wittgenstein
This image will carry me through the day.
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I missed Haden's actual comments - did he say that a rugby team does better without so many "darkies", or did he say that the Crusaders specifically limit the number they have?
One seems offensive to "darkies", while the other is offensive to Cantabs.
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@Giovanni - this is what my cab driver was saying yesterday. It was a conversation I was uncomfortable with, so I didn't pursue it (I've given up arguing with cab drivers unless I'm very, very bored, because it can make for an uncomfortable ride when you disagree with their considered opinions). Also it's hard to disagree with someone else's observation, given my cab driver is a rugby coach and I'm not.
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Also, as I've mentioned here before but now can't remember where I read it, 'ginga-baiting' has its roots in actual discrimination against the Irish.
Possibly from me, though I now think that may be false.
In recent years I have taken to positive discrimination. If for example someone uses the terms "ginga" in front of me I will either call them something like: "fat goatee-wearing cunt face". Or if I'm not drunk, I'll politely point out the anagram of ginga (hint: it starts with 'n').
True story: I was at a lunch where I overheard the following: "I can't tell albinos and gingas apart" "You know what's really funny? Maori gingas".
We left after that.
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The thing about the Haden comments was that he kept insisting that it was the sort of term he'd call his PI friends, and they'd call him honkey, and everyone would have a laugh. And I couldn't stop thinking, "Well, yeah, in the pub, sure... but on TV?" I mean, does the man think that anything he'd do in one context is kosher in all other contexts? How do we know he wouldn't suddenly break out into a rendition of The Ballad of Eskimo Nell in the middle of a press conference?
And the whole ginga thing; how recent is this? I'm strawberry blond, with a red beard, and can't recall hearing anyone being baited for being a red-head when I was at school. Then I went to the UK at the end of the 90s and it was quite common there - people would call out "hey ginger-pubes!" to try to start fights, that sort of thing. Then after we came back in 2005, it seemed to have taken root over here. Not as badly as the UK - where I could reliably expect someone to call it out every few weeks - but you do get it.
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I missed Haden's actual comments - did he say that a rugby team does better without so many "darkies", or did he say that the Crusaders specifically limit the number they have?
As I understood it, both. That the reason the Crusaders do so well is that they limit the number of Polynesian players they'll have.
I was going to suggest that they have an 'anti-stupid' quota, but... Justin Marshall.
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Also, what's with this whole "all gingers are Pakeha" thing? I've met several kazakhs with natural red hair, and they certainly didn't look "pakeha" as it's usually meant.
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unlike, say, Christian Cullen, who could hold his own in conversation with Wittgenstein
Sure, as long as Wittgenstein started the conversation with "So, what's it like to be ridden hard in a harness"
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As I understood it, both
Equal opportunist then. Nothing like managing to offend everyone in a simple two sentences...
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Sure, as long as Wittgenstein started the conversation with "So, what's it like to be ridden hard in a harness"
Actually, speaking of rugby intellectuals -- this whole thing started with Chris Laidlaw, who, as Rosemary McLeod says in this column, has got off scot free:
Haden's nonsense is one thing. But would you be painfully PC if you flinched at this material coming from a noted liberal who is incidentally a Pakeha former halfback? If I were brown, I sure think I would.
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Also, what's with this whole "all gingers are Pakeha" thing
@JackElder. Well, if you're referring to me, I was careful to define the group I was referring to:
I would say I don't consider pakeha with red hair to be of a different race to the other pakeha I know
Thus removing the complication of people of other races who also happen to have red hair. Like kazakhs. But if you really, really want to start a thread about the particular issues faced by kazakhs with red hair, well be my guest :)
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I don't think you can generally compare "Hug An X" with Hug A Y".
Sometimes it's just an offensive term. Sometimes it's fun. Sometimes it entirely depends on who you're hugging.
Consider the list below. For each one there's someone somewhere (and probably more for some items than others) who's going to be really offended.
Hug a ginga
Hug a geek
Hug a beanpole
Hug a hottie
Hug a fatty
Hug a honky
Hug a poofter
Hug a girl
Hug a mother
Hug a lesbian
Hug a barista
Hug a sysadmin
Hug a paedophile
Hug a postie
Hug a tree
Hug a granny
Hug a copperCan't we just agree that you probably shouldn't be running up to strangers and hugging them when they don't expect it?
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I think Jack was referring to me and I was talking about the red headed people being shot in the desert in the MIA video ...
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Kyle did you just call Bernie Fraser a "darkie"? wtf man?
No, Andy Haden did. Those quote marks are there for good reason.
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unlike, say, Christian Cullen, who could hold his own in conversation with Wittgenstein
Sure, as long as Wittgenstein started the conversation with "So, what's it like to be ridden hard in a harness"
You couldn't think of a question that could be answered "neigh"?
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My sister, who is about as ginger as they come, apparently got a fair wee bit of shit at school back in the '80's (I didn't really notice at the time), but I don't recall it being as prevelant as it is now.
It might be instructive to compare and contrast the fate of Ron Atkinson to that of Haden.
Ron Atkinson's comments = media shitstorm and loss of job.
Haden's comments...not so much.
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Haden's nonsense is one thing. But would you be painfully PC if you flinched at this material coming from a noted liberal who is incidentally a Pakeha former halfback? If I were brown, I sure think I would.
Laidlaw though supposedly said it to highlight an issue with racism in rugby. Which doesn't make the allegations automatically true, but it's a qualitatively different observation to the one made by Haden, who seemed frankly disinterested in that angle.
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Considering that Red or Titian Gold, haired people make up only 1-2% of the people on the planet they make an ideal minority. In terms of "harm done" per 1,000,000 or the planet's population the "cost/benefit ratio" falls into figures, that compared to most minority groupings, are quite small.
Because the genetic mutation appears to be associated with the melanocortin-1 receptor (MC1R), which is found on chromosome 16, it would be a simple task to breed this trait out of humanity within a few generations. However, as always there are knock-on effects associated with such a solution. Having eliminated all traces of this minority inducing phenomenon it is likely that those with the propensity to indulge in hatred will find another means of labelling small groups of people on which to vent their hive-mind behaviour and that group would, inevitably, be larger.
I, for one, would like to thank all people with raised levels of pheomelanin for taking on this onerous task and perhaps we could allow a few of them to play for Canterbury.. -
Haden's nonsense is one thing. But would you be painfully PC if you flinched at this material coming from a noted liberal who is incidentally a Pakeha former halfback? If I were brown, I sure think I would.
Chris Laidlaw is a noted academic, ex-high commissioner to Harare and an ex-race relations conciliator, discussing in undoubted good faith a perceived split in rugby along racial lines.
Andy Haden is an unreconstructed supporter of racist South Africa, an authoritarian redneck and the organiser of the disgraceful 1986 Cavaliers tour of South Africa.
Spot the difference Rosie?
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Rosie...
Snort. -
(unlike, say, Christian Cullen, who could hold his own in conversation with Wittgenstein)
Actually part-Samoan, not that that has anything to do with his rather dim bulb ...
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Redhairedness runs in my family, but the only one to be bullied (quite viciously) about it, was one of my nephews. And he went to primary school in the early-1990s...
There is a strong genetic component for red-hairedness among people with Celtic ancestry - but it can crop up among a lot of human groups.
And, a few centuries ago, in Europe, if you were a red-haired woman, you could be suspected of witchcraft...purely on the basis of your hair-colour (but especially if you also had green eyes.) -
Actually part-Samoan
Yes, but would he count as a "darkie" according to Haden? Would Daniel Carter for that matter?
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