Cracker by Damian Christie

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Cracker: Cup of Tea and a new Electoral System

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  • andin,

    my preference is actually to be ruled by a bunch of benevolent elders wearing white Grecian tunics

    And they have to be low maintenance and walk everywhere, aannnddd they've got to be able to wear them well.

    Something I cant see anyone, but Pita Sharples doing at the mo' or maybe that young Labour woman MP. I can never remember her name tho' she wiped the floor with the 7Days crowd, and that was fun to watch.

    Or is she too young, she seemed benevolent enough.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1891 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    benevolent elders wearing white Grecian tunics

    As opposed to malevolent elders wearing Grecian 2000 :D

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • recordari,

    I can never remember her name tho' she wiped the floor with the 7Days crowd, and that was fun to watch.

    Jacinda Ardern. And don't read anything into the fact that I could post that within seconds.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I agree Damien. I'm far happier about the system in NZ than I have ever been about anyone actually elected by it, but it should be remembered that it was brought in by referendum, and it was a close battle.

    A referendum against, however, is something I can't see as being so close. People forget, until reminded, exactly what kind of thing happens under FPP, and the election in the UK is a good reminder. Also, it's no longer the unknown, in NZ, so hysterical scaremongering won't work the way it did last time.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    There were Social Credit and Bob Jones' New Zealand Party, both cited as good examples of injustice under FPP, but neither ever achieved polling parity with the big two.

    The Alliance was generally ahead of Labour in 1994 - 95, before plummeting to 10% in the 1996 election.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • Damian Christie,

    The Alliance was generally ahead of Labour in 1994 - 95, before plummeting to 10% in the 1996 election.

    Really? Interesting. Although perhaps I was being ambiguous (or just using the wrong word entirely), by 'polling parity' I sort of meant in an election. But your point still holds.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1164 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    In the 1981 general election Social Credit won 372,056,
    20.65% of the total, up from 16.1% the one bfeore.

    I do however actually feel grateful that first past the post kept those loons away from the levers of power.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I do however actually feel grateful that first past the post kept those loons away from the levers of power.

    As compared to some of the loons MMP has let in?

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    don't read anything into the fact that I could post that within seconds

    Heh. Quite

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Dave Patrick,

    From that Scoop article:

    Put MMP to the Vote is recommending New Zealand voters adopt the supplementary member system, which will halve the number of list MPs and limit the power of minor parties to frustrate the will of the people.

    What "people" exactly? What if I'm one of those who voted for a minor party, doesn't my will matter?

    Rangiora, Te Wai Pounamu • Since Nov 2006 • 261 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I do however actually feel grateful that first past the post kept those loons away from the levers of power.

    At the small cost of keeping Muldoon in power?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    In the 1981 general election Social Credit won 372,056,
    20.65% of the total, up from 16.1% the one bfeore.

    I do however actually feel grateful that first past the post kept those loons away from the levers of power.

    So, Russell, I presume you consider the 1981-4 National Government,- elected with fewer votes but more seats than the main opposition Labour Party - a sober and rational one?

    A Labour/Social Credit government from 1981 may have actually stared down the Rogernomes..

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Under FPP the third party tends to be a coalition of the discontented, fourth and fifth parties having almost no chance o
    f getting significant representation. My tip is that if the UK ever does get fair votes the lib dems in their current form will disappear.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    kept those loons away from the levers of power

    Don't know enough about the substance of their policies or representatives to characterise the party. In any case, under MMP they would have had to negotiate a coalition, and voters would have made different decisions anyway. The idea of a "protest vote" seems kind of quaint.

    At the small cost of keeping Muldoon in power?

    Quite

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    A Labour/Social Credit government from 1981 may have actually stared down the Rogernomes..

    They were already embedded in Treasury by then - but their ideas might have had a more public airing so that voters knew what they were actually getting in Douglas as Finance Minister and the other one as union pushover.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Don't have time to go into their unusual economic theories, but their connections with the far-right League of Rights were always a bit of a worry.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I remember they looked kind of fusty on the telly but I was blissfully not paying attention to why they were there

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    I love that we in New Zealand have adopted a condescending tone as we see the chaos caused by what we have come to expect since 1996 - no clear winner on election night.

    Let's up-smug that tone. We have had a clear winner on election night, in three of the last four elections. ("Winner" here meaning the name of the Prime Minister, not the exact details of his/her government).

    The UK media have mentioned 1996 a few times, but not so much the experiences since, as we've learned to do it better. That doesn't fit the "OMG PR chaos!!!" line, so it's ignored.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1333 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Nick Clegg hardly seems like Winston Peters either

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

    Since the number of MPs is orthogonal to the system used to vote them in (at least to my mind), does the scoop article indicate that this is going to be a campaign like the 1999 "Should there be a reform of our Justice system placing greater emphasis on the needs of victims, providing restitution and compensation for them and imposing minimum sentences and hard labour for all serious violent offences?" referedum.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    When according to the polls and my own experience wandering the street with a microphone, a good number of us, maybe even a majority, favour dumping MMP (and the majority of them choosing to devolve to FPP).

    At the present time I'm not sure asking teh peoplez is a good indicator of much,.....maybe the elasticity of their knee muscles.
    Tho you might get some unintentionally funny answers.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1891 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    Don't have time to go into their unusual economic theories, but their connections with the far-right League of Rights were always a bit of a worry.

    They'd probably have fitted into phase one MMP quite happily. Just as ACT is today, and NZ First before them, they were a magnet for what Bob Jones termed 'grey shoe wearers', mostly low-key cranks who'll always read a small party's outsider status as standing for a host of vaguely-defined causes.

    While Bruce Beetham appeared to take the Major Douglas economic doctrine to heart (whether he, or anyone, really understood it is another matter), Gary Knapp wasn't known as Gary "Buy Me" Knapp for nothing. An opportunist of the first order, his freak winning and retention of the East Coast Bays seat had about as much to do with Social Credit policies as Rodney's holding of Epsom does with ACT's.

    By the time of their political demise the party was known as the NZ Democrats, with Social Credit policies subordinated to Knapp's electoral appeal. The Knapp brand was instantly snuffed when he was done for running a dodgy mystery envelope fundraising scheme.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Bella,

    Nick Clegg hardly seems like Winston Peters either

    Nick Clegg is like SO much dishier than Winston...

    Mexico City • Since May 2010 • 2 posts Report Reply

  • Andre,

    FPP = For Powerful Politicians. Once they are in power they can move the electorate boundaries to stay in. Social Credit was a system to achieve equality by asking consumers what they most wanted and then producing it, rather than producing stuff then trying to find a market for it.
    Wikipedia says "Consumers, fully provided with adequate purchasing power, will establish the policy of production through exercise of their monetary vote. In this view, the term economic democracy does not mean worker control of industry. Removing the policy of production from banking institutions, government, and industry, Social Credit envisages an "aristocracy of producers, serving and accredited by a democracy of consumers." Socialism that has an aristocracy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit
    The "Crimpoline Suit and Skoda Brigade" were our largest third party for decades but were seen as anti-semetic because they opposed the classical monetary system and founder Major C. H. Douglas was convinced of an international jewish banking conspiracy (ahead of his time perhaps). His ideas were seen as slightly keynesian - and Keynes is back in vogue since the credit crisis.

    New Zealand • Since May 2009 • 371 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    The Knapp brand was instantly snuffed when he was done for running a dodgy mystery envelope fundraising scheme.

    At which point they were socially discredited?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

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